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Colin_D
09-20-2008, 05:49 PM
So I drove my TR6 about 200 miles over the last 2 days, I get it home in to the garage turn it off, then I went to reposition in and I only get a "RR RR" out of the starter. I checked the battery and it's got 12 volts, would a loose connection cause this or do I need a new starter??

Of couse next weekend is the local show.......

Colin

tdskip
09-20-2008, 06:02 PM
We can get it sorted by next weekend!

How strong are your headlights without the car running?

Are your battery terminals nice and clean? Is the negative side ground to the body nice a clean?

Do it work better / worse if you try to starter her several times in a row quickly?

Colin_D
09-20-2008, 06:06 PM
The lights are very strong. The terminals are clean. I haven't owned the car that long, where is the ground located?

tdskip
09-20-2008, 06:09 PM
There should be a thick red or black cable that runs from the top of the negative batter post to the transmission bell-housing or frame (most likely bell-housing).

Check to make sure the connection to the bell-housing is nice and tight and the point where it connects is clean. Always start with this step when troubleshooting electrical bugs since a bad ground can make you nutty.

If you check quickly and report back we can take it from there...

DrEntropy
09-20-2008, 06:17 PM
Okay!

Clock's runnin'!!!

Also check the connection at the solenoid. They can vibrate loose and cause resistance. CAREFUL here as th' cable is hot constantly. No wrenches to grounding points.

You've two live bodies standin' by.

Colin_D
09-20-2008, 06:37 PM
You mean the one with oil all over it??? I just went to the garage and cleaned the cable it started right up.

I have a slight oil leak at the back of the engine I can't figure out where exactly. Is there an alternate location to connect the ground to?

Brilliant! I owe you a pint.

Cheers,
Colin

DrEntropy
09-20-2008, 06:46 PM
Not so faast Colin. Oil on the exterior of a connection would hardly cause what you've described. Cleaning it eve less so.

I suspect your starter is on its way out: You stated the problem occurred after a run. That would allow "heat sink".... I.O.W. (In Other Words) the temp of the engine would equalise across all the large contacting devices (like the starter motor) upon shutdown plus ten minutes or so, and IF there were some marginal tolerances it could fail to spin at normal RPM.

We (tdskip & self) were talking about disconnecting all the ground points and physically cleaning the contact surfaces at those connections. Battery, tranny and chassis.

Colin_D
09-20-2008, 06:54 PM
I disconnected the cable and cleaned back of the engine and the cable as well.

I'm not quite following you on the heat sink issue, why would the starter work again once it cools down?

DeltaAir423
09-20-2008, 07:06 PM
Temperature = Resistance

According to Ohm's law V=IR, therefore an increase in resistance will show a drop in amperage for a given voltage. Since amperage does the work, a drop in amperage will cause a starter to fail to turn a motor. If you have a winding in the starter that is on it's way out, then your base resistance is increased, an a hot starter might cross the threshold of not working as opposed to a cold starter.

DNK
09-20-2008, 07:36 PM
Aw Yes Darrel Ohm, Great Ping Pong player. Use to play in the league with him. :laugh:

DrEntropy
09-20-2008, 08:13 PM
'k Don... go to your room. :jester:

Colin, if the problem recurs, a way to kinda-sorta pin down what's at fault (Rob's explanation of increasing resistance with increasing temp should NOT be taken lightly) is kinda tricky. It requires two folks in sympatico:

One to turn the key (for no MORE than two seconds at each attempt) and one to WHACK th' starter motor case unerringly with at least a 10oz hammer AT TH' SAME TIME. Repeatedly, and in a staccato rhythm. If you can find an accomplice to help you DO this, as you strike the starter motor and it suddenly spins normally the starter is at fault. It can usually be a simple matter of replacing the brushes and cleaning the commutator. Otherwise it'll mean a starter replacement.


Who says there's no VOODOO left in th' world!?!? :devilgrin:


...I know it sounds... err... whacky... but t'is th' truth.

Brosky
09-20-2008, 08:54 PM
Colin,

You better get it ready. Mine is in the shop and you guys will need to give strong support to the TR6 class at BLW in my absence.

Good Luck!!

DrEntropy
09-20-2008, 08:57 PM
Oh, NICE Paul.


NO pressure there.

Brosky
09-20-2008, 09:32 PM
Doc,

There is a "Die Hard" group of TR6 junkies at that event. There are two classes for TR6's, one with rubber bumpers and one without and there will be a ton of really nice cars in each class. Tough, but fun competition indeed.

Just the way that it should be.

The show (actually weekend) is a lot of fun with great scenic cruises, a great trip up and down the Cape Cod Canal and lot's of fun partying. My wife loves going there for the weekend, (lot's of car gals there with hubby's) but I decided to play in a golf tournament that I never get to play in since the car is in the shop.

There will be one or two trailer queens, a ton of sweet drivers and one heavy duty Chevy V-8 conversion that was done exactly right, from the ground up.

I would expect about 250-300 cars this year. Last year it was PACKED all day long.

DrEntropy
09-20-2008, 09:47 PM
Woof.

Sounds like a hoot.


I decided to play in a golf tournament that I never get to play in since the car is in the shop.


Totally understandable.

DeltaAir423
09-21-2008, 02:49 AM
'k Don... go to your room. :jester:

Colin, if the problem recurs, a way to kinda-sorta pin down what's at fault (Rob's explanation of increasing resistance with increasing temp should NOT be taken lightly) is kinda tricky. It requires two folks in sympatico:

One to turn the key (for no MORE than two seconds at each attempt) and one to WHACK th' starter motor case unerringly with at least a 10oz hammer AT TH' SAME TIME. Repeatedly, and in a staccato rhythm. If you can find an accomplice to help you DO this, as you strike the starter motor and it suddenly spins normally the starter is at fault. It can usually be a simple matter of replacing the brushes and cleaning the commutator. Otherwise it'll mean a starter replacement.


Who says there's no VOODOO left in th' world!?!? :devilgrin:


...I know it sounds... err... whacky... but t'is th' truth.


Should I dive into the explanation of thermal runaway? I saw a Cessna 140 owner break down and cry because he decided to charge his battery inside the plane, and his battery experienced thermal runaway. Let's just say that He ended up getting new belly skins and stringers from the battery box back to the empenage due to the acid contamination.

tdskip
09-21-2008, 09:37 AM
Colin - how are things going this AM?

Is she starting reliably now?

DrEntropy
09-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Must be out puttin' miles on it.

Twosheds
09-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Should I dive into the explanation of thermal runaway? I saw a Cessna 140 owner break down and cry because he decided to charge his battery inside the plane, and his battery experienced thermal runaway. Let's just say that He ended up getting new belly skins and stringers from the battery box back to the empenage due to the acid contamination.

Doubt it was thermal runaway since thermal runaway only affects nicads and I really doubt that a 140 would have a nicad!

I'm sure you didn't have me for Aircaft Battery class.

DeltaAir423
09-21-2008, 10:39 PM
Should I dive into the explanation of thermal runaway? I saw a Cessna 140 owner break down and cry because he decided to charge his battery inside the plane, and his battery experienced thermal runaway. Let's just say that He ended up getting new belly skins and stringers from the battery box back to the empenage due to the acid contamination.

Doubt it was thermal runaway since thermal runaway only affects nicads and I really doubt that a 140 would have a nicad!

I'm sure you didn't have me for Aircaft Battery class.

All I remember about the 140 (this was over 10 years ago, as a freshly minted A&P), I got a call that there was a 140 that our lead was going out because the owner had problems. The battery had overheated while on the charger, and boiled over. The sulfuric acid had sat in the belly of the plane for a few hours before it was noticed. My lead immediately sent me back for baking soda and water, but by that time the damage was done.

This was the same company that put me on a DC-3 elevator reskin on my first day, and my A&P class was the first one that didn't have to build a dope and fabric wing.

Due to witnessing that, to this day, I will not put a battery on a charger, unless it is out of the car, and over a diaper mat.

RonMacPherson
09-21-2008, 11:53 PM
Doc, we are all "suppositioning" here. But I agree with you being on the right track as far as increased resistance.

BUT, it may not be internal in the starter. He said he cleaned a cable and it started again.

My experience with these "rrr-rrr'ers' when warm has been external cable terminal looseness, corrosion buildup, etc...

So, before he goes internal in the starter, I would recommend pulling the battery terminals and scraping the posts and terminals clean, tightening them, checking, unloosening bolts and retightening each of the ground bolts, battery positive nut, make sure the negative cable grounds at both the frame and the firewall bolt.

DrEntropy
09-22-2008, 06:57 AM
BUT, it may not be internal in the starter. He said he cleaned a cable and it started again.

My experience with these "rrr-rrr'ers' when warm has been external cable terminal looseness, corrosion buildup, etc...

Yup-yup, no argument... but:

When he said something about cleaning oil off of a cable we had already passed the: "clean the terminals and the other ends at ground and starter" part. It sounded to me as if he'd just wiped oil from the exterior of the wire and the thing spun up (coincidentally, IMO, due to having cooled off a bit) on the next turn of the key.

Twosheds
09-22-2008, 10:32 AM
All I remember about the 140 (this was over 10 years ago, as a freshly minted A&P), I got a call that there was a 140 that our lead was going out because the owner had problems. The battery had overheated while on the charger, and boiled over. The sulfuric acid had sat in the belly of the plane for a few hours before it was noticed. My lead immediately sent me back for baking soda and water, but by that time the damage was done.

This was the same company that put me on a DC-3 elevator reskin on my first day, and my A&P class was the first one that didn't have to build a dope and fabric wing.

Due to witnessing that, to this day, I will not put a battery on a charger, unless it is out of the car, and over a diaper mat.

Overcharging for sure.

The DC-3 story reminds me of the A&P who went to work for Basler right out of school. In school they told him,"This is a radial engine, you'll never have to work on one". So he goes to work for Basler Aviation. They work on, you guessed it, DC-3s. They're the ones who put PT-6s in 'em, too.

That's why I tried to never say never to my students. You just don't know where they will go to work.

Brosky
09-22-2008, 10:34 AM
I have to side with the Doc a bit on this one. I'd also check that starter very carefully. Years ago I ran into a bunch of brand new Delco starters that would get hot and the case would expand ever so slightly, but the gap change was enough to screw up the electrical tolerances and it would not start the car.

Those starters would just separate a small amount at the case seam when they got and that would do it. It took a smart old timer to teach us young pups about looking for problems in a different manner to finally uncover that one.

DeltaAir423
09-22-2008, 03:04 PM
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Overcharging for sure.

The DC-3 story reminds me of the A&P who went to work for Basler right out of school. In school they told him,"This is a radial engine, you'll never have to work on one". So he goes to work for Basler Aviation. They work on, you guessed it, DC-3s. They're the ones who put PT-6s in 'em, too.

That's why I tried to never say never to my students. You just don't know where they will go to work.


My first direct hire job was for a little on demand cargo outfit working on DC-3's, Convair 240's, 340's, and 440's. I learned the truth of the phrase, "Check the gas and fill the oil."

tdskip
09-22-2008, 03:14 PM
My first direct hire job was for a little on demand cargo outfit working on DC-3's, Convair 240's, 340's, and 440's. I learned the truth of the phrase, "Check the gas and fill the oil."


LOL - I'd never heard that before but it makes perfect sense.