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Tinster
09-02-2008, 04:40 PM
My engine is dead again. 1969 TR6 w/ Lucas dizzy.

I've just replaced the coil and condenser,
replaced both low and high tension coil wires,
cleaned the plugs and checked the carb
diaphrams. All my ignition wires are new.

Plugs at .025" gap; timing at 10* advance.

I don't know how to change and gap new points.
Can someone help me with the points procedure?

Step by step since I know almost nothing of electronics.

thanks,

dale

RonMacPherson
09-02-2008, 05:05 PM
Okay, Cuz, a little refresher.

If all else fails, refer to page 519 in the Bentley manual.

I recommend, flat level ground, car in neutral with the parking brake on; key off, remove the distributor cap(making sure the carbon brush in the center that contacts the rotor is intact, and that there are no tracking cracks around any of the plug wire posts. Remove the rotor, give it the inspection, per the service manual(page 523) and also my earlier post.

Remove the hold down screw(s) for the condensor and point set, disconnect the primary wire that connects to these two items.

Take the new points and clean any shipping sealant residue off the contact points(just clean white paper(off of your printer) and slide between the points). Put a little distributor cam lube(most points sets come with a little plastic tube in the box). Squeeze that on the plastic cam arm, on the left side(as the shaft turns CCW it will hit the cam lube first). Don't be messy, but make sure the lube is on the cam plastic nubby from top to bottom) instal the points and condensor, making sure that no exposed terminals are contacting the distributor. Make sure the ground wire that screws onto the breaker plate is also fastened to the distributor body.

No set the points: two ways, dwell meter or feeler blade.

Turn the distributor so that a cam lobe is touching the plastic cam arm where it is fully centered with the arm.

You do this by turning the engine, if it is not already on the high spot of the cam lobe. Either a wrench on the alternator, crank the engine, or what I do, take the parking brake of, put in 2nd or 3rd gear and rock the car slightly(roll it forward or backward). THen adjust the point gap to .016 in..book says .014 to .016 of an inch. I recommend the larger setting as the points will settle in slightly with breakin wear.

Put the rotor back on, the distributor cap, making sure all the wires are intact, fire it up. Then if you have a dwell meter and want to double check, fasten one terminal to the distributor side of the coil and check dwell. Book calls for 35 plus or minus 3. I recommend setting it at 33 or so, as the break in wear will close the points slightly, which increases the dwell number.

OK?

RonMacPherson
09-02-2008, 05:08 PM
Oh, by the way. When you change the point gap(dwell setting) you will change the timing. But not enough to concern yourself with.

What was the measurement that you decided to change the coil for?

primary to primary impedance? primary to secondary impedance improper, or short in the coil?

Don't throw the coil away yet, as I would like to get your measurements from you, and further output tests to see if you can keep it as a back up coil. You said you have 12 volts to the coil from the ignition switch right?

Tinster
09-02-2008, 05:22 PM
Thanks Ron,

yes, right now I am just throwing parts into the car
and hoping one will make it go. I've kept the Lucas
Sport coil on the parts shelf but tossed the rest.

thanks,

dale

swift6
09-02-2008, 05:33 PM
Dale, before you pull your old points, you can check and make sure they are opening. Rock the car like Ron said for getting the cam lobe and arm on the point, where the points should open, and make sure they are. Your points simply could have closed and killed the spark.

If you use a metal feeler guage to set/reset the points gap, disconnect the coil from the distributor while you do it. You don't want to be on the wrong end of a grounding there. It stings a little. :wink:

trrdster2000
09-02-2008, 06:04 PM
Dale, a odd thing happened years ago on a coil a friend installed, it was a sports coil of some kind and would run for a while then stop. It took several settings of the points to see what was happening, the sports coil had too much voltage and was slowly melting the plastic block from too much heat, so the points would keep closing. You might want to check the points you took out and compare them to the new ones, where it rides on the cam.



wayne

tom628
09-02-2008, 11:24 PM
Dale, before you start all this, are you currently getting spark at all the plugs when you crank the engine?

Tom

startech47
09-03-2008, 06:37 AM
Dale,

After you install the new parts in your distributor disconnect the wire attached to the outside of the coil and insulate it with electrical tape temporarily. Take an ohmmeter and connect both leads to clean metal spots on the engine and verify that it reads approximately 0 ohms. It will likely be just a little above 0. Than without moving one of the leads from the engine connect the other lead to the tab on the outside of the distributor that you removed the wire from. Have someone bump the engine several times. When the point rubbing block is on the top of the bump on the cam, points open, you should have very high resistance. When the point rubbing block is on the base line circle of the cam, points closed, you should read approximately 0 ohms. The meter may take a short time to stabilize due to the condenser charging and discharging. If this test turns out correct everything in the distributor is correct.

Phil

It is likely only 1 part is bad. Why are you throwing out every thing?

NickMorgan
09-03-2008, 01:03 PM
Has anybody mentioned to be careful that you put the two little wires under the plastic washer when you put the new points in? I didn't once and it took me ages to figure out what was wrong.

tdskip
09-03-2008, 02:51 PM
Has anybody mentioned to be careful that you put the two little wires under the plastic washer when you put the new points in? I didn't once and it took me ages to figure out what was wrong.

I did that this summer!

Worth checking / remembering.

Wirewheels
09-05-2008, 09:14 AM
When all else fails, replace the points with a Pertronix electronic unit. Smartest thing I ever did on my 4a! No points, no adjustment, always starts.

MDCanaday
09-06-2008, 11:50 AM
For the road emergency I like to keep a fresh advance plate with points and condenser installed /ready to go,in a plastic baggy in the boot.Gets you on the road quickly,lots of bad accidents happen on the shoulder!!!
MD(mad dog)

KVH
09-06-2008, 12:42 PM
Dale, it's something simple. It's like when you're suspecting everything else but the real cause.

Nick is right--look to be sure those wires are under the insulator. And check everything else that is basic like that.

I have one of those cheap $12 test lamps where I can clip one end onto the bolt in the valve cover (or any good ground)and poke the sharp probe into the ignition lead or other wires while the ignition is switched on.

That way I can be sure I've got current in the wire, to the connectors, and beyond. I'll wiggle the wires while using the probe. Anything to just rule out bad wires one at a time.

That's how I discovered a bad wire from my ignition leading to the coil.

A car that starts today and won't tomorrow, but starts again the next day, has something simple going on. Current or fuel. It sure doesn't sound like your coil or condenser, distributor cap, rotor, or plug wires anymore--you replaced those.

The "points" adjustment should be easy once you get your cam lobe on a high point. Sorry I don't have your manual, but you set those "static", correct? Engine off?

Good luck. Imagine the great drive you'll have when it's fixed!

Aldwyn
09-14-2008, 08:00 PM
One word for ya, Dale...

Pertronix! :laugh:

Brosky
09-15-2008, 08:02 AM
I think that this thread is old and Dale has the front carb issue resolved and the car running once again.

Tinster
09-15-2008, 08:15 AM
I think that this thread is old and Dale has the
front carb issue resolved and the car running once again.

Yes Paul, the engine is moderately functional now.

My carbs are very rich. With the mixture hex tool
in the dashpot which rotation will lean out the misxture

Clockwise lean out ?

or

Counter-clockwise lean out.

There seems to be difference of opinions.

thanks,

d

RomanH
09-15-2008, 07:05 PM
Counter clockwise is lean.

Brosky
09-15-2008, 10:08 PM
Dale,

Follow the Buckeye chart. Bottom out the needles and the back them off per their instructions. Remember that 3.5 turns out and the needle will be out to far, but that is dead rich anyhow.

I guess that I have a question. Have you or anyone else adjusted these carb needles since they came back from Jeff? I'm trying to figure out how you went rich from being fine earlier this year?

If you haven't touched them, then maybe the problem is elsewhere because these particular parts do not go out of adjustment on a routine basis.

I hate to see you chasing something that may not be the problem, if it wasn't back then.

I'd be looking long and hard at the choke mechanisms before I'd touch needles set by Jeff and then checked by Dave and Ben.

Tinster
09-16-2008, 06:38 AM
No Paul,

I have not touched the needles after Ben set them.
Until yesterday when I leaned them out.

I also am wondering how so many things went out of
adjustment and how so many fuel delivery parts
and ignition parts broke while the car was parked
for 12 hours after a fantastic run the day before.

Everything is now new and the car drives very strong.

Here are two of my new plugs after a 40 minute drive
yesterday.

regards,
d

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/BoschPlugs.jpg

startech47
09-16-2008, 07:03 AM
Dale,

What did the plugs look like prior to the 40 minute run?

How did the car perform during the 40 minute run?

Phil

Tinster
09-16-2008, 08:13 AM
Dale,

What did the plugs look like prior to the 40 minute run?

How did the car perform during the 40 minute run?

Phil

Both plugs were brand new out of the box.
The car ran just great during the 40 minutes of driving.

I've not tried to start it this morning so I do
not know if it is still functional.

regards,

d

RonMacPherson
09-16-2008, 12:24 PM
Cuz, can I ask a question?

When the needles were being turned the holder kept the needle holder in place, you know the one with the little roll pin sticking out the side?

I'm wondering if somewhere it might have slipped as the needle was being turned. If so it could have torn the diaphragm. Might be worth popping the top and checking the diaphragms very closely.

Silverghost
09-16-2008, 02:08 PM
Could weak spark mimic running rich? If the points were set wrong or not getting good flow, could this cause the plugs to fire poorly, not igniting the fuel thoroughly, which is about the same thing as a good firing plug being given too much fuel?? Seems like Amos may be functioning somewhat well - :smile: - again.

Brosky
09-16-2008, 03:55 PM
Ron asks a good question. Are you using the proper two piece adjustment tool, rather than just a flat blade screwdriver?

Tinster
09-16-2008, 04:11 PM
Ron asks a good question. Are you using the proper two piece adjustment tool, rather than just a flat blade screwdriver?

<span style="color: #990000">Yupper I am !!! And I even know how to use the tool!!
I might know zip about auto mechanics but when a master mechanic
like Banjo personally demonstrates technique, I pay attention.

d</span>

Brosky
09-16-2008, 07:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Could weak spark mimic running rich? If the points were set wrong or not getting good flow, could this cause the plugs to fire poorly, not igniting the fuel thoroughly, which is about the same thing as a good firing plug being given too much fuel??[/QUOTE]

Well Dale, since you have the adjustment tool and appear to be somewhat on your way, have you ever established if the points were correctly gapped? I can't see how they would have changed since Ben was there, but there are many mysteries hidden under the bonnet of the Beast of the Islands........

Remember, 95% of all carb problems are electrical.

RonMacPherson
09-16-2008, 08:29 PM
Yeah, let us know either what your dwell is, or your point gap is....Okay?

Slainte'

Tinster
09-16-2008, 08:37 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Could weak spark mimic running rich? If the points were set wrong or not getting good flow, could this cause the plugs to fire poorly, not igniting the fuel thoroughly, which is about the same thing as a good firing plug being given too much fuel??

Remember, 95% of all carb problems are electrical. [/QUOTE]

<span style="color: #660000">Points are a nice snug, clean, flat faced, non-pitted .015

AFTER I had replaced the entire fuel delivery system, yet again,
Ben sent me that quote to ponder. I stuck in a new condenser, the car
fired up right away and I got 75 miles driven before it broke down again.

Currently operational- for now.

d</span>

RonMacPherson
09-16-2008, 08:52 PM
Then I got a little project for you Dale.

Want you to take your voltmeter, hook it up to the ignition side of the coil, from where the voltage goes to the coil. That will be the positive lead, a good ground for the other lead, battery, a good bolt, etc..

Mount it in the car, so you may have to make "extensions" for the leads. If your voltmeter has a highest reading, great, otherwise, have your passenger keep an eye on the voltage.

Now on the 20VDC scale go for a road test. Have someone watch the voltage reading. We are looking for a "spike" or "twitching" of the voltmeter needle. I am just wondering if you aren't getting a voltage spike that is eating the condensor up, possible a failure internal in the alternator, daytime first thing to go would be the ignition system. Or if you have a motor running(fan motor, etc.) you might hear its speed change. At night you would see lights "flare" up.

I know this is a far reach, but the symptoms and components you've replaced also are a stretch, so.......?

Tinster
09-16-2008, 08:56 PM
Thanks Ron,

I'll rig that up next week when I'm back on-island.
Leaving Thursday for St Croix.

d

Brosky
09-16-2008, 09:30 PM
Ah, St. Croix...............for some rest and relaxation?

However, in the Crypt............The Beast will once again have time to rest and gain it's strength back in anticipation of the Persistent One's return.

The saga continues............

Tinster
09-17-2008, 05:10 PM
Ah, St. Croix...............for some rest and relaxation?

However, in the Crypt............The Beast will once again have time to rest and gain it's strength back in anticipation of the Persistent One's return.

The saga continues............

<span style="color: #660000">Nope!

A young couple is house sitting for us.
They instructions to open the garage door twice
a day and GLARE at Crypty while holding jack stands.

d</span>