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Twosheds
06-24-2008, 03:26 PM
I took a drum off the TR3 and this is what I saw.

There couldn't have been much braking going on, could there?

I can't tell if it's grease or oil, actually looks and feels like a mixture, so I'll replace both seals.

Always sumpin'.

TR4
06-24-2008, 03:48 PM
At least it kept mean ol Mr. Rust away. Looks like it will clean up real nice..........but could the bearing grease be getting in there somehow? Where could the grease come from?

tosoutherncars
06-24-2008, 03:52 PM
Holy... you don't have an ambitious relative who just upped your insurance policy, by any chance? :wink:

DougF
06-24-2008, 04:52 PM
If it were possible for that brake to hang up, it would have smelled great a few months ago...Castrol Smoked Roasted Chestnuts.
You could probably market them at the races.

PeterK
06-24-2008, 05:11 PM
That's gotta stink (literally.) Gotta be diff fluid. Can you smell it?

Are those 10" shoes? If you need 'em, I have an early spare set fits TR2-TR3, not 3A.

Don Elliott
06-24-2008, 05:34 PM
Peter - My 1958 TR3A (TS 27489 LO) has 10" brakes and drums. It came that way. It was later that they changed to 9" diameter.

PeterK
06-24-2008, 07:06 PM
Don,

My 3A TS296xxL still has 10" drums on the rear. Never changed mine to 9".

According to the catalogs, early TR2-TR3 used a Lockheed 10" drum in front and rear. And the early 3A's used a Girling 10" drum on the rear only. I have a spare set of early Lockheed 10" shoes but mine are Girling 10"ers.

From the greasy picture, it appears that John also has the Lockheed shoes or maybe even 9"ers.

PK

vivdownunder
06-25-2008, 02:01 AM
I recall the Lockheed rears on the TR2 had vertical wheel cylinders, whereas the Girling's are set at an angle of around 45 degrees, as in the pic.

Seeing the Girlings had an additional oil seal in the axle housing as well as the one in the hub, you don't often see them leak diff oil as badly as the old Lockheed type was reknowned for. Axle vibrations were thought to cause early failure of the single hub seal.

Once the heavy diff oil gets fried by the brakes, that's a typical sight that greets you, sometimes only spotted when it gets so bad that oil seeps down the backing plate and drips onto the garage floor.

New seals and a brake reline should fix it, and for even braking, it's worth getting the other side relined to match.

Viv.

TR3driver
06-25-2008, 08:51 AM
Where could the grease come from? The wheel bearing has a grease fitting, so over-enthusiastic greasing of the bearing can push grease out into the brake area. There is a seal for the bearing, of course, but it won't hold much pressure.

More likely, the inner seal is bad (the one that keeps oil in the axle), so the oil is washing through the grease in the bearing and carrying a combination of them into the brake.

OTOH that slave cylinder looks suspiciously clean and the mess looks suspiciously like what I found after a slave had been leaking a little bit for a long time ...

Good luck breaking those hubs, Doctor, let us know how it works out for you. As I'm sure you're aware, just sticking them in a press is a Bad Idea as the force required to separate the hub is also enough to distort (and ruin) the hub if it's not solidly supported over the entire area. PM me if you'd like some articles on substitutes for the special Churchill tool.

Twosheds
06-25-2008, 10:27 AM
That's gotta stink (literally.) Gotta be diff fluid. Can you smell it?

Are those 10" shoes? If you need 'em, I have an early spare set fits TR2-TR3, not 3A.



It smells kinda like gear oil, but feels greasy. I suspect The Randall is correct; it's a mixture.

I apologize for the confusion about 10" vs. 9" drums. I call my widemouth a TR3 instead of a TR3A because that's what the commission plate says it is. The TR3A designation was given to the widemouth cars after the fact by enthusiasts to differentiate the widemouth cars. This is a bone of contention nowadays and I fall on the smallmouth/widemouth side of the fence. It's a carryover from aviation where the data plate info, not common names, must be used to fill out forms.

So anyhoo, they are 9" drums on TS 56882L. I have some 9" shoes over in the Lab. I'll rebuild the cylinder, too, since the oil/grease got on it.

Randall:

I called the mechanic who did my TR3"A" racecar rear. He used a press to open (forgive me if I do not use the term "break") the hub. His back problems keep him from working on heavy components now, so he told me to take the hub to a machine shop to open the hub using a press. I, too, remember reading that a press can cause damage, but I also trust this mechanic.

This causes internal turmoil.

I seem to remember that someone on this forum has a hub tool that he offered to lend to any forum member in need, but I forget if it fits a TR3. Oops, there I go again. TR3A.

TR3driver
06-25-2008, 12:02 PM
Actually, although the remainder of the brakes were made by Lockheed and Girling; I don't believe the drums were.

In any case, the early 10" drums used with Lockheed brakes have the same part number as the 10" rear drums used with Girling brakes. Shoes and everything else are different, but the drums are the same.

Getting your shoes relined seems to be a very viable option, if you can wait a few days. My local FLAPS can send them out for about $30 to me; or TSi will do them in 'Kevlar' friction material for about $50 (plus S&H).

As a side point on the TR3/A debate (apparently some US dealers did call them TR3A); I wonder if the commission number plates for the TR3B were so marked ?

angelfj1
06-25-2008, 12:20 PM
"So anyhoo, they are 9" drums on TS 56882L. I have some 9" shoes over in the Lab. I'll rebuild the cylinder, too, since the oil/grease got on it."

yes my 3A, TS58476 also has 9-inch drums - apparently the change-over was TS50000

TR3driver
06-25-2008, 12:34 PM
Book gives 56376 <span style="font-weight: bold">"approx"</span> as the change point for the 9" rear drums.

But of course they do interchange, so it's not unusual to find the wrong size on any given car. TS39781LO has 9" rear brakes, undoubtedly because they came with the 3.70 axle that was swapped in for the original 4.10 (before I got the car).

PeterK
06-25-2008, 01:14 PM
Semantics as far as my wording, but you are correct, of course. I <span style="text-decoration: line-through">stand</span> sit corrected and should have typed :

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]According to the catalogs, early TR2-TR3 used a Lockheed <span style="font-style: italic">braking system with a</span> 10" drum <span style="font-style: italic">on each side </span>in front and rear. And the early 3A's used a Girling <span style="font-style: italic">braking system with</span> 10" drums on the rear only. I have a spare set of early shoes <span style="font-style: italic">from a </span>Lockheed <span style="font-style: italic">braking system with</span> but mine are <span style="font-style: italic">from a </span>Girling <span style="font-style: italic">braking system with</span> 10"ers.[/QUOTE]

But you all knew what I was trying to say regardless.

edit: And the shoes are not interchangeable AFAIK.

TR3driver
06-25-2008, 01:34 PM
I meant the brake assemblies are interchangeable between Girling 10" and Girling 9". Shoes have to match the assembly of course.

And while we're being picky, early TR2 had 9" Lockheed rear brakes, with the same drums used on late TR3A/B with 9" Girling rear brakes.

Sorry for the confusion, Peter. My fault for reading what you typed, not what you meant <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

Could be mistaken, but I think John has the upper return spring on the wrong side of the shoes. At least I know it's supposed to go behind on the earlier brakes, and I don't recall it changing.

PeterK
06-25-2008, 03:26 PM
I was just having some fun Randall. Gee, and I thought you were clairvoyant! :wink:

Didn't know about the early 9" brakes though. And I'd forgotten about the grease fitting on the bearing housing so I went out and gave mine a couple of shots.

foxtrapper
06-26-2008, 06:29 AM
I can't tell if it's grease or oil, actually looks and feels like a mixture,...

Grease is oil. It's mixed with a stiffener, typically a soap. You can also make a grease by mixing oil with brake dust.

Don Elliott
06-26-2008, 07:18 AM
John - Here's a photo of my 10" rear brake on the driver's side. Someone above pointed out about your spring. Notice how my upper spring is attached. Compare this to yours.

TR3driver
06-26-2008, 08:50 AM
I checked the TR4 shop manual (which shows the 9" Girling rear brakes). It also has both return springs behind the shoes.

Don, you're supposed to brush a little used engine oil on those leaf springs occasionally. Keeps them from rusting between the leaves <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

vivdownunder
06-26-2008, 09:20 AM
Yep, return springs always go behind the brake shoes to pull them back against the steadying posts on the backing plate.

Incidently, there are little white felt bushes on these posts, and if they are missing, this can cause the shoes to set up a rattle that is very hard to pin down.

Both 9" and 10" drums are interchangeable between Lockheed and Girling brakes. For what (little) it's worth, I believe the drum manufacturer for the factory was Qualcast, a UK company that made lawnmowers.

Regarding the query on the TR3B Commission plate, mine just had TCF2650L, being the 154th last sidescreen car made. The body number on the firewall also had a TCF prefix. Like the 3A's, there was no special factory recognition....apparently they were all just known as TR3's.

Viv.

Incidently, a snippet on 3B's passed on years ago by a retired factory engineer who lived nearby, was the TCF second series was so called being obviously "T" for Triumph, "C" being a commission number used on TR4's, to denote that all these later 3B's had TR4 engines, gearboxes and front brakes. "F" was for the Forward Radiator company, an S-T subsidiary, where the 3B's were made.

TR3driver
06-26-2008, 09:50 AM
Incidently, there are little white felt bushes on these posts, and if they are missing, this can cause the shoes to set up a rattle that is very hard to pin down. True, but the 9" Girlings didn't have the steady post or the felt bush. Instead the shoes rest directly against the backing plate and you should apply a little smear of grease at that point every time you service the shoes.

Flipped open my Piggott and there is a photo of a TCF commission plate ... sure enough, still says "Triumph Sports Type 20 TR3" on the (silk screened) top line.

Twosheds
06-26-2008, 11:14 AM
Could be mistaken, but I think John has the upper return spring on the wrong side of the shoes. At least I know it's supposed to go behind on the earlier brakes, and I don't recall it changing.

O.K., I'll flip 'em around when I install the new shoes.

Good catch.

Twosheds
07-29-2008, 04:03 PM
Does this look any better, guys?

Should get more rear braking this way, eh?

Are the springs the right way round, Randall? I hope so; they only worked for 25 years when they were backwards, and I'd like them to last this time.

Tinkerman
07-29-2008, 07:11 PM
Sheech, now I'm going to have to pull mine and see which way I put the springs on. For sure I don't remember. Maybe I can find a picture..........
so many little things to remember!

Tinkerman

Tinkerman
07-29-2008, 07:23 PM
Just looked at a picture and yep! I got them correct! Yea!

TR3driver
07-29-2008, 11:03 PM
Looks good to me, John.