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chrisc
03-13-2008, 05:46 PM
So, I've finally assembled the components to take my current headers and exhaust off my car (the exhaust is on its last-legs).

I will be running the Tri-Y TR8 headers back to new intermediate mufflers back to over the axle pipes. I don't intend to put new rear mufflers on.

Question, anyone have a similar set-up? Am I heading down the path of annoying my neighbors too much?

Current set-up is factory manifolds with straight pipes (no balance pipe) over the axle to rear mufflers. Even with just the rear mufflers on, the car is a little too subtle to my ears.

The tubular header will certainly enhance the sound quality, wonder if the muffler trade-off is a wash? I probably will gain some benefit (not necessarily an aural benefit) from the intermediate muffler/balance pipe that is automatically built-in.

Any other known "gotchas" or issues with installation or my plan I need to be aware of?

Thanks!
Chris

Mickey Richaud
03-13-2008, 05:58 PM
Hi, Chris -

I have headers with glasspacks mounted midship on mine, and small reverse-flow resonators in the rear. It has a very nice sound - quiet, but aggressive, if that makes sense.

Mickey

DNK
03-13-2008, 07:31 PM
Would think a crossover of some kind is needed.I'm probably going to have mine custom made locally next month.

JFS
03-13-2008, 07:48 PM
I have the ss headers and "loud" system from Rimmer Bros. It has an H pipe a bit behind the collectors and only a pair of small resonators behind the rear axel. It's gotten a bit louder over the last couple of years, but seems to be acceptable (I like it) unless I "get on it" (then I really like it). It has a very nice rumble at idle with my mild cam. I live in the city and have received no complaints or tickets so far -- but a lot of people have admired the sound.

chrisc
03-13-2008, 10:45 PM
Thanks for the input and descriptions of your systems so far. I may have to modify my approach some to achieve what I'm after, which more of the pure V8 rumble that I'm sure is there just needs to be unleashed. Don't want to be obnoxious, just less mellow....

PATR8
03-14-2008, 04:00 PM
I have the exact set as Mickey and like the sound and simplicity of the exhaust

DNK
03-14-2008, 05:42 PM
What are reverse flow mufflers.
Do you mount them backwards? :thumbsup:

amcboy
03-14-2008, 08:41 PM
they only work when the car is in reverse...


I'd recommend the H-pipe highly.

chrisc
03-14-2008, 10:36 PM
I'm with you Don....what's reverse flow? Who makes it, size, etc..a quick perusal through the JEGS catalog did not reveal anything so described. I see resonator tips, but no reverse flow resonators...

Chris

DNK
03-14-2008, 10:54 PM
While we're at it. When my exhaust is built I am contemplating switching from the round exhaust tips to a more oval shape. Has anybody seen this done on the *8. What's everybody's thoughts on my idea?

vagt6
03-15-2008, 07:57 AM
Hey, guys, I recall the original equipment TR-8s are very quiet. I've seen/heard concours TR-8s and it's amazing how quiet the engine is.

Is the OEM exhaust system relatively restrictive? Not good for modified engines?

Just wondering. There could be a TR-8 in my future, I'm trying to learn more.

Thanks for the input!

Mickey Richaud
03-15-2008, 09:03 AM
I'm with you Don....what's reverse flow? Who makes it, size, etc..a quick perusal through the JEGS catalog did not reveal anything so described. I see resonator tips, but no reverse flow resonators...

Chris

Hi, Chris -

There are two basic forms of mufflers - Straight-through and reverse flow. Straight-through mufflers reduce back pressure effectively, but are louder. Reverse flow (and the "Turbo" design) mufflers take the flow of exhaust through chambers in order to silence the exaust.

Better definition here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Dp_LUwqIW7sC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=revers e+flow+muffler&source=web&ots=vu7lDES4zN&sig=MrbQg ArFNgXnKpe94hlm0JLlKTU&hl=en

What I did was go with straight-through glasspacks mounted under the cabin, and with the proper crossover to help equalize the flow, and small turbo mufflers at the rear. It has a very nice, mellow sound while driving around town, and is very quiet on the road, until you really put your foot in it!

Hope this helps.

Mickey

Mickey Richaud
03-15-2008, 09:07 AM
While we're at it. When my exhaust is built I am contemplating switching from the round exhaust tips to a more oval shape. Has anybody seen this done on the *8. What's everybody's thoughts on my idea?

Hey, Don -

I've seen one TR8 with the oval tips. Looked pretty good. I've also seen the double, slanted tips on each side. A little overdone for my taste, unless the outlets aren't too large. It's all in what speaks to you.

Mickey

swift6
03-15-2008, 11:00 AM
Hey, guys, I recall the original equipment TR-8s are very quiet. I've seen/heard concours TR-8s and it's amazing how quiet the engine is.

Is the OEM exhaust system relatively restrictive? Not good for modified engines?

Just wondering. There could be a TR-8 in my future, I'm trying to learn more.

Thanks for the input!

They are pretty quiet in stock form. Fairly restrictive too. Considering engines tend to be glorified air pumps the stock TR8 is pretty restricted on both sides of the engine.

TR8's are pretty fun. Coupe's especially but I could be biased. :wink:

DNK
03-15-2008, 05:53 PM
Convertibles Rule :thumbsup:

chrisc
03-17-2008, 10:22 AM
You can definitely get just about any tip shape you want with the exhaust finishers/extensions. There are some very nice options on JEGS or Summitt -- price runs the gamut also.

Chris

chrisc
03-17-2008, 10:41 AM
Mark, in terms of the quietness of stock TR8's, my experience is based on the two I've owned; one completely stock on the intake and exhaust (very quiet). and my current car that now has a Holley conversion and just one set of stock mufflers (rear) a notch higher on the mellow scale, but still quiet. I started the thread to see what others are doing or have done to put a little noise in their drive! As Shawn said, they are pretty sedate and restrictive in stock form. But there is a wide potential for mod's/enhancements. If you get one, you'll be hooked like the rest of us!

At the other extreme of how good a TR8 can really sound -- check out Woody's bad 8. You can find it on youtube. Incredible. Of course he's got a few more mods in the engine than most of us have also!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWui6STT0tY

Mickey, thanks for the explanation. Sounds similar in concept to the resonated tips that I've seen. Where did you source your turbo mufflers from?

Might also be interesting if anyone else has sound files or sound/video of what they have modified to "hear" the end result. There are some other good examples on youtube, but must be a whole lot more out there.

Chris

swift6
03-17-2008, 11:21 AM
When I replaced my stock mufflers (they were falling apart) I just went to a local shop and we installed four small glasspacks to replace the original mufflers and resonators. Barely increased the sound. Planning something different when I add headers but for now its okay, not great but okay. The FHC blocks a lot of the noise anyway.

I've seen a couple of YouTube videos where you can hear some exhaust set ups pretty well. Including the Rimmer "Performance Loud" vs "Performance Quiet" systems. The 'quiet' still had a pretty throaty sound to it.

Mickey Richaud
03-17-2008, 01:07 PM
Mickey, thanks for the explanation. Sounds similar in concept to the resonated tips that I've seen. Where did you source your turbo mufflers from?
Chris

Chris -

The mufflers were in stock at a local muffler shop. Nothing special, really. The trick is to find some that are small enough to fit. I'll try to get some measurements for you later.

Mickey

chrisc
03-20-2008, 04:45 PM
Simple, maybe obvious question...

Each exhaust port has an individual gasket, is it necessary or advisable to put any gasket seal on either side of the gasket when putting the header on? In other words will the gasket seal sufficiently on its own?

Thanks,
Chris

tr8todd
03-20-2008, 04:48 PM
Just the gaskets.

Mickey Richaud
03-20-2008, 05:36 PM
Just the gaskets.

Yep.

And you can get Fel-pro gaskets at your neighborhood parts store. Get them to order (if they don't stock 'em) the gaskets for a Buick 215. They're excellent quality, and the bolt holes are the "open" or hooked type that make it easy to line up.

Mickey Richaud
03-20-2008, 05:43 PM
Oh, and as long as you're putting this back together, and especially if you're using headers, be very sure that the mating surfaces are perfect. I had a burr on one of the header flanges that I didn't notice, and had to pull everything back off to address it. Kinda like the carpenter's rule: "Measure twice; cut once."

DNK
03-20-2008, 08:28 PM
That's why mine will be custom made.
I just can't decide whether to co mild steel and have them coated with the stainless back. Or have the complete system stainless. On my 6 it is stainless and the whole shooting match is coated.(except the muffler tips)

Cheapsnake
03-21-2008, 08:21 AM
Here's a bit of a different approach. I've always loved sidepipes so, since my TR8 was a lead-up to my Cobra, sidepipes seemed a natural. Plus it was a relatively easy and cheap way to go.

I simply added short mufflers right behind the H-pipe and exited the mufflers with short radius 90* elbows right ahead of the rear tires. The trick is to find the shortest mufflers available because you don't have a lot of room to work with. I ended up using Cherry Bombs simply because they were the shortest I could find. They are reverse flow mufflers but not real effective in knocking down the sound.

The sound is a bit sharper and louder than stock, especially since the pipes are exiting right below your ear. They bark pretty good when you get on it but at cruising speed they're very pleasant, at least to my taste.

Just another option to complicate your life.

Tom
https://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/Cheapsnake/sidexhaust.jpg

tr8todd
03-21-2008, 09:35 AM
The problem with side exhaust, is the noise you get when you are beside something. The sound waves bounce back off of the object at you. You get comfortable with the sound of the exhaust and all of a sudden you drive past a concrete barrier. The noise level doubles instantly. It's enouh to startle you. Kind of the same effect as having a loud motorcycle scream past you out of nowhere. Used to have them on one of the race cars. I never got used to the sound when you were running near the wall. Not to mention, the wedge isn't blessed with alot of ground clearance in that location. One big advantage on the race car was it could be switch from side to side. If sound control was on one side of the track, I could flip the pipes and have them come out the other side.

Cheapsnake
03-21-2008, 11:34 AM
The problem with side exhaust, is the noise you get when you are beside something. The sound waves bounce back off of the object at you. You get comfortable with the sound of the exhaust and all of a sudden you drive past a concrete barrier. The noise level doubles instantly.

Yeah, I know. It's terrible. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif

Tom

chrisc
03-22-2008, 10:42 PM
Thanks guys, gaskets it is then. I had a set come with the headers, so I'm assuming they'll be good to use.

Cool side exhaust Cheapsnake, not sure I'm ready for that, yet!

Chris

tr8todd
03-23-2008, 06:58 AM
You are going to find that one bolt has to go in first. It is shrouded by the tube and can't be started if the header flange is snug to the block. Your best bet is to get them all started and then tighten them each a little at a time. Also make sure the gaskets are matched to the ports correctly. It is easy to get one reversed and partially cover the hole. I like to take a knife and port match them as well. Don't know if it helps or not, but it seems like it would. If you mess one up, you can buy a strip of header gasket material at the parts store and remake them. I think it is Mr. Gasket brand that most place carry. You have to get the car way up in the air in order to slip the headers in place. You might want to consider some kind of heat sleeve to cover the wires that go to the starter and the alternator.

chrisc
03-24-2008, 11:40 AM
Todd,

Thanks for the additional suggestions. I have a starter shield I bought for the previous TR8 I had but never installed. I'll put it in when I put the high-torque Denso starter on I got from Woody. Did not even want to try and put the starter on until the header replaced the manifold, heard that was not something that would be a lot of fun.

Chris

Bob Buxbaum
03-28-2008, 08:46 PM
So, I've finally assembled the components to take my current headers and exhaust off my car (the exhaust is on its last-legs).

I will be running the Tri-Y TR8 headers back to new intermediate mufflers back to over the axle pipes. I don't intend to put new rear mufflers on.

Question, anyone have a similar set-up? Am I heading down the path of annoying my neighbors too much?

Current set-up is factory manifolds with straight pipes (no balance pipe) over the axle to rear mufflers. Even with just the rear mufflers on, the car is a little too subtle to my ears.

The tubular header will certainly enhance the sound quality, wonder if the muffler trade-off is a wash? I probably will gain some benefit (not necessarily an aural benefit) from the intermediate muffler/balance pipe that is automatically built-in.

Any other known "gotchas" or issues with installation or my plan I need to be aware of?

Thanks!
Chris

Chris, I have JFS's system on my TR8. Rimmer's SS headers, complete stainless steel dula system with crossover, and resonators. Sounds wondereful. NOBODY believes it when I tell them what the engine is. I have bumped the compression, smoothed the ports, balanced the engine, mild cam, and an Edelbrock intake and Weber/Edelbrock 500 cfm 4bbl. Sounds GREAT. The crossover pipe is needed to smooth the exhaust flow. The Weber is coming off (junk) for a Holley 390/450 so that it will not flutter on hard cornering. Getting the tightening sequence of the header is import. I got sick of screwing with the flange BOLTS, and installed exhausr manifold studs. MUCH easier to deal with.

tr8todd
03-29-2008, 07:24 AM
You will find, in spite of conventional wisdom, that the Holley 600 works very well on the Rover V8. They are also much cheaper than the 390. I run a 650 AED racing carb on my racing 4 liter. It's basically an expensive reworked holley. Supposedly it helps with fuel starvation during long hard turns. I have a basic Holley 600 on the 3.5 liter street car. The majority of the carbs Woody sells are 600s. I recently watched Woodys car on a dyno run. Even with a 650 or 700 racing carb, he was lean at full throttle on his 5 liter. I guess that can be corrected with bigger jets, but he is tearing apart his motor in search of even more power.

DNK
03-29-2008, 06:42 PM
Todd- What size headers do you recommend. I saw on Woody's forum Jeff was asking about it and I think went with 1 5/8s. On a good street machine what is your thought?

tr8todd
03-29-2008, 07:28 PM
Well, there really are no options out there. The only headers available are the ones that Woody and Ted sell. They are the same headers, and are made by Kirk racing. They can sell them cheaper than you can buy a single set from Kirk, because they buy multiple sets at a time. From Woody you can also get a large tube design that he advices for the bigger motors. Tim Lanocha had headers made up that are a four into one design, which is better for higher rpm power, but not as good for around town driving. Doubt he has any left. Custom headers run at least a grand a set. I have three sets of mounting flanges cut from discarded sets of headers in the garage. Some day soon I plan on making up my own set just for fun, but not before I get some books and school up on header design theories. As I acquire more and more cool tools for the shop, it makes these kind of projects possible. I do think Jeff might be on to something thou. Since he has the most to gain from such info, and the resources to gather it, I suggest we sit back and let him figure it out.

chrisc
03-31-2008, 10:06 PM
Headers and exhaust are finally on! Wow what a difference, just running the stock intermediate mufflers/h-pipe with over the axle pipes is a nice set-up. Much nicer at idle and really growls now once I get on it a bit.

Chris

DNK
03-31-2008, 10:09 PM
Chris, Did you say who's you got?

chrisc
04-01-2008, 10:56 AM
Don, bought the headers from Ted/TSI. Todd indicated earlier that standard headers come from same manufacturer. you won't have an issue if you buy from Woody or Ted. Comes with gaskets and new header bolts. I just slapped 'em on as they come stock, painted. No coating or wrap.

I may or may not stay with the over the axle pipes, I'm still contemplating a set-up similar to what Mickey described earlier.

Chris

PATR8
04-01-2008, 11:49 AM
I seem to remember my pipes I bought had to be notched to leave room for the air plugs. Not a ton of work but a pain in the 5th point of contact

DNK
04-01-2008, 10:31 PM
D- What air plugs?

swift6
04-02-2008, 09:41 AM
He's speaking of the air injection ports in the heads.

PATR8
04-02-2008, 12:35 PM
UMMM, yes, that is exactly what I was speaking of and not sure where Air plugs came from in my post... brain drain from a long day I guess

DNK
04-02-2008, 01:17 PM
Don't think mine are there anymore.

JeffYoung
04-07-2008, 09:28 PM
I finally got registered at this place....

As Todd indicated, I'm doing some experimentation with TR8 headers for my ITS car. The gist of the thinking is that the old 4-2-1 Tri-Y, with 1 5/8 primaries was a good design at the time but header "thinking" has passed it by. Here's what I know for sure:

1. I ran Tr-ys from Woody (quality stuff, and still have them) my first couple of years. Car made about 150 whp, 195 wtq. This was a stock 3.5, just balanced, etc.

2. In my class, the 8 has class leading torque, suffers a bit on the top end. In the quest for better breathing and more top end power, I did the allowed IT head work (port matching the heads and intake manifold one inch in) and got Ted S. to sell me the actual 4 into 1 headers he ran on his Playboy endurance TR8 back in the 80s. They are old, and not in the greatest shape, and had LONG tubes for torque. We cut them down just a bit, and put the car back on the dyno. 160 whp, 190 wtq, but we moved the torque and power curve to the right a bit. Torque peaked around 3500/3600 rpm, which was about 300/400 rpm higher, and power at 5200 rpm.

3. The "new" thinking amongst IT engine builders is that most cars use too much primary. Smaller tubes scavenge better, as the gases move faster. For example, ITS 240zs make incredible power for their displacment -- a 2.4 liter overhead cam six will put out about 170 to 175 whp and nearly as much torque. Part of that equation is using 1 and 3/8 primary tubes on the headers. Given that the 240 has six cylinders, a 1 3/8 tube would, you would think, work on the 3.5 as well.

Have had some difficulty in getting someone to fab up a set. Woody had a guy who was going to do it but found out tonight that he bagged it on Woody, so I'm looking for some one local. I'll give you dyno numbers once we get a set made.

Of course, the big news is we are ditching the Strombergs this coming off season (just after we got them working well, of course....lol..) and going FI. While the plenum on the Federal injection system is a bit constrictive, the intake manifold is MUCH better than the pent roof carb manifold we have to run in ITS. Like 20% more flow BEFORE port work. Couple this with a Haltech engine management system to cure the Lucas ECU's fueling problems (it basically DOESN'T fuel over 4500 as best we can tell) and we are expecting big things for this motor.

There is anecdotal reporting of a 9.35:1 3.5 in England in an MGB GT V8 with the Federal system making about 185/190 hp at the wheels. I have to run 8.6:1 compression, but should make up any other losses with a better exhaust, and the allowed head porting. I'm expecting the same, which would really make this car a beast in ITS (I'm presently a 2nd to 5th place car).

DNK
04-07-2008, 09:40 PM
Jeff, WELCOME. Love the vids on Woody's. Cept the last 1. The 260 got left in the dust.Waiting for your video for the next race.

In your exhaust talk how would this concept work for a street car. Do you think the smaller Primaries are better on a street set up?
I am really toying with buying Woody's or having a set built locally for my street car.
Keep the wheels pointing down and more videos coming.
Don

JeffYoung
04-07-2008, 09:53 PM
Yeah, Ron just wasn't up to speed that race and we left him behind very quickly. I had a great race with that 325 and got around him pretty early...then had to keep him there. Those cars have as much torque as we do.

Woody's is high quality stuff, you can't go wrong there. Plus, a custom set is expensive and I'm using it to solve a very "narrow" problem - how to move the torque and power band "up" the RPM curve a bit on an essentially stock 3.5.

Not sure how much of that translates to the street. On the street, for most of what I would do (cruising around town) more torque down low is what you want so the Tri-Y is probably perfect for that application. DEFINITELY use a cross over -- in fact an "X" is better (on the dyno) than a balance pipe, and if you can live with the look a single pipe is even better than that (Y pipe we call it).

So, for a street car, I'd probably use Woody's Tri-Ys, coated to help keep the engine bay temps down, then have an exhaust guy take them from there -- for the cats and the balance tube, and then out the back.

I'm racing in Savannah end of April. Should have my vid setup working then so I will actually have in car from the 8 there.

DNK
04-08-2008, 10:42 PM
cats???? not in WA. Hah

MGA Steve
04-08-2008, 11:03 PM
Thanks everyone. :thankyousign:

I have been watching this thread since this topic started without saying anything, but have learned a lot. It's nice to be able learn from guys who are already trying all these different approaches instead of learning by (expensive) trial and error.