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02-21-2008, 05:51 PM
I canceled my order for a new GP2 cam (had to pay full price anyway) and ordered instead Ted Schumacher's S2 cam with hardened cam followers. Very similar grind. Sending the head off to get the valves reworked and passages cleaned. Will stay with the roller rockers and nix the auxiliary oil line to the head.

Should be good to go in about 3 weeks, might make the New Orleans show.

TR6oldtimer
02-21-2008, 06:25 PM
Hmmm, let's see, higher lift, longer duration, peak power range moved to higher rpms. Looks to me to be closer to the GP3 cam. Putting a little lope in your life?

Do you need to re-curve the distributor?

This will be cool.

DrEntropy
02-21-2008, 06:26 PM
Wash or better, replace the chain while you're in there, too. Can you envision checking a few of the bearings? Especially the thrust side (upper) of the rods.

vettedog72
02-22-2008, 12:40 AM
Bill
That makes good sense.

2wrench
02-22-2008, 05:39 PM
Interesting, Bill, very interesting.
Sounds like fun. Anybody got one of these
cams?

You figure you'll feel it at idle, Bill, or is
this one soft enough that it won't be that bad?

Do ya figure the auxillary oil line actually did any
diservice to ya considering your present situation?

Heard said by some to have all the blood shooting to
the crank is their preference. I just don't really
know. But if you had any reason to suspect that
auxillary oil line, it would be cool to hear about it.

Best of luck and keep on drilling.... I mean, wrenching.

02-22-2008, 05:45 PM
2Wrench, Ted Schumacher sells the cam and it is a bit more radical than the GP2 cam. There will be a noticeable lope, but at my age, any lope is a sign that I am still alive.

Ted was the one that was emphatic that I take that auxiliary line off, said is was doing more harm than good.

DNK
02-23-2008, 10:32 AM
Interesting, Bill, very interesting.
Sounds like fun. Anybody got one of these
cams?
I have 1 in mine never been started yet




Do ya figure the auxillary oil line actually did any
diservice to ya considering your present situation?

Heard said by some to have all the blood shooting to
the crank is their preference. I just don't really
know. But if you had any reason to suspect that
auxillary oil line, it would be cool to hear about it.



Ted's not a real fan the the aux line.

LastDeadLast
02-23-2008, 10:57 AM
Bill,

Don't know if you've seen these yet, but from Moss's new products section:

https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=66149

02-23-2008, 11:39 AM
I wonder how much they are from APT direct.

2wrench
02-23-2008, 11:52 AM
By Gucci?

2wrench
02-23-2008, 11:59 AM
Gotcha, Bill. Maintaining/increasing lope is a
constant battle for we who qualify to order off the
Senior Menu.

LastDeadLast
02-23-2008, 02:42 PM
Yeah.. Moss is usually the most expensive for stuff like this. I would be surprised if you couldn't get them from APT much cheaper... but "You gotta pay to play!"

martx-5
02-23-2008, 03:27 PM
What's the diameter of the TR6 tappets? The ones I bought from Ken at BF&E for the TR3 motor are phosphated with the drain hole, and are $11 each. They are 0.937" (or something close to that). He also has them in 0.875". Curious though, he doesn't list tappets for the TR6.

LastDeadLast
02-23-2008, 03:39 PM
Something slightly off topic but very related to Bill's engine failure, but what would it take to engineer roller lifters for the TR motor. Just curious.

Brosky
02-23-2008, 03:44 PM
The lifters are not on APT's website as of this afternoon. It says they are coming, but not posted yet.

The TR6 lifters are 0.800" if I remember correctly.

I'm curious to know if these have a radius on the bottom and what it is. They are coated for break in so that's a good thing. Now to find a matching cam and all will be well.

Maybe......

02-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Paul, the APT website hasn't been updated since 2003.
They operate by catalog and phone...

02-23-2008, 11:42 PM
Having called pretty much all over the country about my revolting development, the scary part is the comments I am getting from different vendors, both large and small. From such things as, "Gee, that's the first time I've seen that happen." (which I don't believe) or "They don't make them for the TR6." or "They are back-ordered and should be in by mid March." or "The other guy's stuff is pure junk." (Won't even touch that one)

The bottom line is I am beginning to believe a truth, that cam followers are not what they either should or used to be. And I am not too sure about other parts.

Brosky
02-24-2008, 12:31 AM
Shannon,

A good mechanical design engineer, with an automotive drive train background could do the design on his/her CAD system in about two hours, tops.

The problem would be getting a manufacturer willing to tool up to machine them and assemble them as matched parts, then to sell them at a price affordable to a market of about 20-30 nuts like us.

Not much incentive or margin of profit in that business plan.

70herald
02-24-2008, 01:44 AM
Shannon,

A good mechanical design engineer, with an automotive drive train background could do the design on his/her CAD system in about two hours, tops.

The problem would be getting a manufacturer willing to tool up to machine them and assemble them as matched parts, then to sell them at a price affordable to a market of about 20-30 nuts like us.

Not much incentive or margin of profit in that business plan.

I have been mulling this over for a while, and have come to the conclusion that the most likely way for this to succeed would be to find an existing roller, which is slightly smaller diameter than the 0.8" TR tappets, maybe from some Japanese or European engine? If they are smaller it would be quite simple to get some sleeves made up for the current bores. Length of the lifter wouldn't be a real problem since there are already sources for custom made rods so any length could easily be compensated for.
The American V8s all use much larger diameter followers. To bad since they are so readily available!

LastDeadLast
02-24-2008, 08:18 AM
Well, with the American v-8 design, most come in pairs and are connected at the top by a hinged bar:

https://www.iskycams.com/ART/durathonpair.jpg

I always assumed that this design kept the roller lifter from rotating and thus keeping the roller correctly positioned on the cam.

If I remember right (it's been 3 years), aren't our tappets completely inserted in a hole? How could you keep them from rotating? The answer might be simple, I just can't remember the engine design that clearly right now.

But gosh it would be sweet if it could be done. Think of the interesting cam profiles that could be used!

Brosky
02-24-2008, 09:46 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]aren't our tappets completely inserted in a hole? [/QUOTE]

Shannon,

Yes, they are. And they should rotate or if they don't, bye, bye cam and lifter. That is why there needs to be a very small radius on the lifter lobe and the lifter base. Just enough to allow it to move around as it goes up and down. Dead flat is dead metal after a short time.

Now these rollers are a completely different concept and the TR6 blocks can be over bored in the lifter galley to allow for bigger lifters. The questions are how much boring can be done, how big of a lifter (widths and height) and will can the geometry of the valve train allow? After that what current production roller lifter would fit in the available space? I'll bet that that there is an international engine using these in a smaller than US V-8's that we aren't even aware of.

I think that I'll call my machinist on Monday with a few questions. I know that he builds engines with roller rockers all day long.

Actually, I have to stop there with a set of cam bearings if they come via UPS tomorrow, so I may have some answers by then.

swift6
02-24-2008, 10:21 AM
What about hydraulic lifters instead of roller. I've been told by a few more knowledgable than me that my TR8, with hydraulic lifters, is not in the same boat as my TR6 with Solid lifters. With that boat being the extreme need for the proper amount of ZDDP.

Brosky
02-24-2008, 12:04 PM
Shawn,

That may be true, but I'm not sure about the oiling requirements for swapping over to hydraulic lifters. What I mean by that is the design to get the oil to the hydraulics more than anything else.

I like the design of the new hardened Moss lifters with the oil hole and they will be fine for me, if I can ever get a cam, but that is another story.

I'm still going to pursue the roller and hydraulic angle with Bob Mason.

LastDeadLast
02-24-2008, 12:23 PM
Paul,

Let me know what your engine guy says, I would be very interested in what he says.

I love this forum.

Brosky
02-24-2008, 01:13 PM
No problem. If my parts arrive tomorrow morning, as they should, I'll be there mid afternoon. Or sooner.....

I love this stuff too!!!

70herald
02-24-2008, 02:13 PM
There are two different style American lifters one with the flat connecting bar like you show and another type were they run in between a flat plate which keeps them from rotating. If the length could be worked out it would be trivial to machine a slot into the head to accommodate the flat plate. Just browsing through a few online catalogs, it seems that 0.84" (Oldsmobile) is the smallest diameter cams easily available. Now I kind of regret letting that junked block go.

Hydraulic lifters would be problematic since there isn't a sufficient flow of oil for them the way our engines are designed.

Brosky
02-24-2008, 02:24 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Hydraulic lifters would be problematic since there isn't a sufficient flow of oil for them the way our engines are designed.[/QUOTE]

That confirms my previous comment (and fears) about the engine oiling design.

Where is the link for the Olds setup that you found? I'll how it to Bob and see what he thinks about adapting these to my engine. He can also make me custom length push rods in his shop, so that it not a worry if I can get these to work.

I'm just not sure about taking the lifter bores out to .084" + whatever tolerance will be needed for oil and clearance. I don't know, maybe there is enough meat there to do it.

It's getting more interesting as this goes on.....

LastDeadLast
02-24-2008, 03:51 PM
Crap.. If this all works, you realize I'll have to pull my head and install them? Next time I just need to shut up.

:crazy:

02-24-2008, 06:07 PM
I finally got everything pulled off the engine, save the dizzy and fuel pump. Had to index both the crank sprocket and cam sprocket as both were new and had no index marks. Will wait to get the new cam in next week to make sure of the alignment on the sprocket before I take it off the old cam. Still have to jack the engine and pull the cam through the grill opening (have yet to pull all that down.

All I know is this better work as I do not plan on doing it again.

$houlda had a V8!

Now the question of the day. Since I have some individually tested hardened cam followers coming in, I assume the new (not a regrind) cam has an appropriately hardened lobe to match. That actually is a question I need to ask Uncle Ted (Schumacher).

To top it all off, I savagely chipped the paint on my fender when I lifted the radiator out. It never ends....

TR3driver
02-24-2008, 07:30 PM
Since I have some individually tested hardened cam followers coming in, I assume the new (not a regrind) cam has an appropriately hardened lobe to match. That actually is a question I need to ask Uncle Ted (Schumacher).I agree about asking Ted ... but my understanding is that the new cam lobes are relatively soft as delivered; which is the point of the run-in procedure. The lobes get burnished and work-hardened under relatively low stress, and wind up being suitably hardened in the right places.

02-24-2008, 07:36 PM
Randall, this stuff gets complicated.

On another note, what are the chances of my being able to inspect the rod and crank bearings on my engine with the engine in placed. Can I (or should I) pull the pistons and rods out and mic them? The bearings are Vandeville bearings and have maybe 20K on them. Or is there any other inspection or torquing that I can do to the journals to check them out?

Brosky
02-24-2008, 07:40 PM
Hmmmmm......

I'm not doubting you personally, Randall, but knowing the work that goes into the stamping and progressive die tools that I see being built every day, both working surfaces are always hardened equally to the best of my knowledge.

I'm going to look further into that as well tomorrow. I've already asked three cam sources in my weekend emails, but no answers back yet from them.

swift6
02-24-2008, 09:51 PM
Shawn,

That may be true, but I'm not sure about the oiling requirements for swapping over to hydraulic lifters. What I mean by that is the design to get the oil to the hydraulics more than anything else.

Ahh yes, makes sense.

TR3driver
02-24-2008, 11:00 PM
Hmmmmm......

I'm not doubting you personally, Randall, but knowing the work that goes into the stamping and progressive die tools that I see being built every day, both working surfaces are always hardened equally to the best of my knowledge.By all means, check with whoever you trust, Paul. I'm just repeating what I've heard from the likes of Kas Kastner and Greg Solow.

Bill, with that amount of metal "missing", I would want to pull the pistons out and have a look at both the ring areas and the rod bearings. After 20K miles, might be worth replacing them anyway ... ISTR Mr Haynes suggests changing rod bearings every 30K (on a 4cyl TR) as preventative maintenance.

As already noted, hydraulic lifters need pressurized oil for proper operation, not just spray from below (and drips from above) like flat lifters use. Might be possible to drill the block to supply oil to the lifters (from the passages to the cam bearings) but it would be a difficult/expensive operation I suspect.

Hmm, wonder what's in the area between the pairs of lifters ? Might be you could cut a slot in there for the holding plates for rollers ... of course then you'd have to find someone to grind you a roller cam. The lobes are tapered on flat/hydraulic cams, but not on roller cams.

startech47
02-25-2008, 12:00 AM
Roller cams have a different profile than a flat tappet cam. The cam shaft manufacturer should be able to recommend an equivalent profile.

70herald
02-25-2008, 12:08 AM
Where is the link for the Olds setup that you found? I'll how it to Bob and see what he thinks about adapting these to my engine. He can also make me custom length push rods in his shop, so that it not a worry if I can get these to work.

I'm just not sure about taking the lifter bores out to .084" + whatever tolerance will be needed for oil and clearance. I don't know, maybe there is enough meat there to do it.

It's getting more interesting as this goes on.....

This is the sort of roller I was thinking of

https://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=LUN%2D72400LUN&amp;autoview=sku

To bad they don't have good dimensional drawings of these part at least the total length then it would be easy to sit down an measure the bores and work out how much would need to be machined away.

Incidentally it looks like the top half is pinned to the bottom (roller half) it may well be possible to get the top half made up in different lengths.

Dave Russell
02-25-2008, 12:50 AM
Since I have some individually tested hardened cam followers coming in, I assume the new (not a regrind) cam has an appropriately hardened lobe to match. That actually is a question I need to ask Uncle Ted (Schumacher).I agree about asking Ted ... but my understanding is that the new cam lobes are relatively soft as delivered; which is the point of the run-in procedure. The lobes get burnished and work-hardened under relatively low stress, and wind up being suitably hardened in the right places.
I think it's generally agreed that the lobes on a flat tappet cam as well as the lifters, NEED to be around RC55 or greater to last for very long. They WON'T get any harder during run in. Just more finely polished &amp; mated to their respective surfaces.
D

zblu
02-25-2008, 07:54 AM
I always of the opine that the more you worked the material by bashing (tongue in cheek)/shot peening the harder it got, but more brittle, kind of like s/s?

Brosky
02-25-2008, 08:18 AM
I don't believe that there is any substitute for proper heating treatment of the materials in question, be it prior or after grinding. The big factor is whether or not the grinding will remove the heat treated area in the process.

Opa
02-25-2008, 10:41 AM
Bill
when you originally installed the cam and roller rockers etc., did you check for spring binding at all? I reread your other post and didn't see the question asked.

How about it guy's could this be a possibilty?
I know when I put my cam in years back I was instructed to check for this.

This should show up if springs are removed and the coils are shiny where the coils have hit each other I think. Just a thought.........

02-25-2008, 12:06 PM
The machine shop that built my head installed the valves and springs. I have the head in another machine shop that will be testing the springs for pressure and binding. All should be good, unless there might have been too much spring pressure. Will find out this week.

Opa
02-25-2008, 12:49 PM
keep us posted Bill,feel bad for ya and all, but this might be a learning curve for everybody else considering performance upgrades.
I had my cam reground to very similar specs as GP3.by an outfit in Vancouver B.C. called Shadbolt cams, they also resufaced and hardened the lifters at that time.They used a grind that Colt cams in Langley B.C. still uses today as Geoff Bardal was an employee at Shadbolt.Specs for the cam are listed on his web site (Colt Cams) under British Cars -TR6 performance cam. It is quite lopey and a bit of a pain in slow traffic where the RPM drops below about 15-1600.It also has a noticeable lope at idle which is around 1000-1100. It does make up for it after 2500 RPM tho. :yesnod:

That'S part of the reason I put a switch on second gear for the overdrive.Gives a little more range of RPM.I have also not installed an aluminum flywheel yet but may try one if and when the clutch needs attention. I'm thinking this could further affect low speed driveability.

The other problem I have is to meet smog test numbers at idle. :wall: Run tests are good. The only way I get it thru is to retard timing and set idle speed to about 1500 rpm,add methyl hydrate to the fuel tank and a can of Pennzoil emissions reducer.
Good Luck!

Brosky
02-25-2008, 01:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]By all means, check with whoever you trust, Paul. I'm just repeating what I've heard from the likes of Kas Kastner and Greg Solow.[/QUOTE]

Randall, somehow we always seem to agree to disagree amicably, which is a good thing. And I never meant to imply that I didn't trust your judgment, which I think you know. In this case however, I have to bow to your comments and acknowledge your statements as more correct than mine. In speaking to several cam manufacturers, the cams are not "fully hardened" in the production process, nor should they be (as I was incorrectly assuming). A good cam is in the RC52-55 range. The problem is that to test them, ruins the surface that you are testing. While none would readily state the break in process contributes to a "work hardening" of the cam lobe surface, there was enough of your answer to be correct over what I had thought was the correct process. There answers seem to confirm that the lobe surfaces are considered polished and that the parts mate together as the break in.

An interesting point was that everyone points to the oil (lack of zinc) as an issue, but they are also very concerned about the use of hardened lifters in the RC65 and up range. Several felt that these are too hard and combined with the very slippery oils in use today, which do not allow the lifter to rotate on a flat tappet cam, an increase in lobe wear will be inevitable, sooner, rather than later in most cases.

As Bill mentioned, the correct valve spring pressure and the angles created a higher lift all contribute to a more accelerated wear situation than on a softer stock grind.

So again, I'm pretty much back where I started from. I think that it's a crap shoot no matter who you chose or what you end up doing, even if you match everything and do your due diligence about oil, additives and valve springs.

TR3driver
02-25-2008, 01:14 PM
On another note, what are the chances of my being able to inspect the rod and crank bearings on my engine with the engine in placed.It occurs to me that I misread this question the first time ... it's not hard at all to pull &amp; inspect the rod bearings with the engine still in the car. You'll need to drop the pan (which I assume you've already done) to inspect/change the bearings, and pull the head if you want to inspect the pistons (they only come out the top).

Not sure of the details for main bearings on a TR6; but they are reasonably easy on a TR2-4. Last time I did it, the front &amp; rear caps were a little stubborn, so I made a simple puller from some bar stock and 4 bolts. The gasket between the front sealing cap and the front plate will tear, so replace it with your favorite "form a gasket" goop.

02-25-2008, 01:24 PM
In dentistry, we deal with some similar problems. There is something called the "envelope of function" where anterior (front) teeth work top against bottom in an elongated oval when functioning and each person is similar/different. If one violates this envelope by encroaching upon the function area, disaster. Such as when "cosmetic" dentists lengthen teeth with porcelain veneers or even crowns that the patient's muscle memory, bite and TM joint react by either shaving the lower teeth off (as in my cam lobe), breaking the veneers (common) or jambing the joint. These patients are often required to wear a "night guard" to protect the restorations. I'll admit that being old school makes me something of a dinosaur but <span style="font-style: italic">form follows function</span> still rules. That said, perhaps I should have been satisfied with a stock engine.

RonMacPherson
02-25-2008, 09:19 PM
Did a little research a couple decades ago. Biggest problem was some kind of guide to keep the lifters from turning in the bore.. None of the cam people that I talked to had any lifters that they thought would work. Bore diameter, etc. was no problem. Their concern(Isky, Crane, and a couple of others, forget who right now) was the clearance above the bore, to provide for an interconnecting link, or possibly machining a groove down the bore for a pin on the body of the lifter to keep it from turning.

I never got to get inside and take precise measurements of the clearance and get back to them before I got carried away. Mebbe Brosky can have his machinists do that and get with Elgin cams in the Bay area to see what he can come up with as far as roller tappets??????

Brosky
02-25-2008, 10:21 PM
Ron,

That might have been possible if Dema Elgin ever answered one out of four phone messages properly or replied to very detailed emails on his suggested input forms.

Sometimes I really get tired of begging people to take my money. As easy as he is to deal with, I wish my machinist could supply all of these parts, but he doesn't have the time to search, so I'm doing it. It's fun, but frustrating when things like that happen.

I'd rather have him running lathes and boring machines than looking for parts anyhow.

2wrench
02-26-2008, 10:14 AM
Ouch, Bill! Okay, at least I think I have remained
conservative, at least somewhat. Shaved head to
increase compression.

I think the cam I chose is somewhat moderate.
Hope I don't screw up installation of machined
parts, etc.