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View Full Version : I think I wiped out my GP2 cam........



02-17-2008, 07:01 PM
Take a look at the #3 lobe on my GP2 cam (that would be the 2nd intake). It looks trashed to me. Rough to the touch and somewhat flattened. What is the world could have caused that? I know that the roller rockers are adjusted properly, all new cam followers, new chromoly push rods. I will call Richard Good in the morning and see what he says. Gotta take the whole front of the engine and the head off to redo. This ain't fun. Must have been part of that clanking noise.

The kicker is, it runs great when it gets warmed up.


Any thoughts???

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/billkaram/lobe.jpg

2wrench
02-17-2008, 07:20 PM
Dang, Bill. So sorry. Never heard of a cam lobe making
a clanking noise before; but, then, I had never heard
of a flapping headgasket till that happened on my
'47 Plymouth (first car, ever).

Thanks for the time and trouble to take the picture. Looks
good.

Is the lobe you mention the one closest to the main
bearing cap? I can't see much on the ones dripping
with oil.

02-17-2008, 07:24 PM
I highlighted it for better viewing. Cannot for the life of me figure out why this might happen. There is some play in the thrust washer but not enough to do damage. Have a new one to put in. The cam is not set in cam bearings. Has about 8000 miles on it. Pulled the valve cover and will check all my valve settings, too p.o.ed tonight to fool with it any more.

Brosky
02-17-2008, 07:42 PM
Bill,

Back to basics. Did you check the total lift to see if the lobe truly is worn? Let's look at some details before tearing anymore down.

A worn lobe will not get better as the engine warms up and the view from that angle is deceptive, at best. Get that valve cover off and watch the movement of the push rod and rocker first.

02-17-2008, 07:58 PM
Any suggestions on what to measure to see if indeed that lobe is flattened? If it is flattened out, then the intake valve won't be opening all the way, right?

02-17-2008, 08:02 PM
Too, look at the texture of that lobe, almost as if there were casting defects in the metal. Looks porous or pitted. Feels rough to the touch.. All this with a strong flashlight and sticking my hand up into the bowels of the short block from the bottom.

Then, to top things off, I got a drop of motor oil in my eye.
Boy, does that sting.....

vettedog72
02-17-2008, 08:13 PM
Bill
Do you have the tappet out yet; if so, what does it look like?

You can read Crane's reasons for failure:

https://www.cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=1

02-17-2008, 08:17 PM
Have yet to take the head off to remove the tappets. The tappets were all new, never interchanged. The auxiliary oil line seems to do the job, everything is nice and wet with oil under the valve cover.

Brosky
02-17-2008, 08:22 PM
Bill,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]If it is flattened out, then the intake valve won't be opening all the way, right? [/QUOTE]

That is correct and easy to compare to the one next to it.

Be careful on the edges of the cam lobe when you are reaching up there feeling around. If it is worn abnormally, those edges can get razor sharp. That, along with the oil as a lubricant, can provide some nasty cutting action to the skin.

You already know that you don't have to ask me how I know this.

Richard has never had a problem with his cams as far as I know. If the valve is adjusted properly and you have no lift, then you know it has to come out.

Knowing you, I'm sure that you did everything correctly when installing it, so I'd be surprised if the casting was bad.

You did get a brand new cam and not a regrind, right?

02-17-2008, 08:29 PM
Everything was new from GoodParts, even the valve springs.

Even though there appears to be flattening of the lobe on the second intake, all this might mean at this point, if indeed it is starting to flatten, is there would be less air/fuel going into the chamber when that valve is opened. The push rod might be able to rotate freely when the valve is "supposed" to be coming off the intake, i.e., premature valve closure or even slow opening of same.

Am I off here or what?

Brosky
02-17-2008, 08:35 PM
Bill,

There is a normal slight side flattening of every lobe. In other words, they are not perfectly egg shaped, but have an inclination angle that climbs from a certain point of the base circle to the top of the lobe, where lift is at at maximum and the valve is in the full open position.

Turn the engine over slowly and observe the opening and closing of the valve in question and compare it to the next intake or exhaust that matches it to see if the opening amount is the same.

02-17-2008, 09:03 PM
With 10 and 12 fully compressed, 1 and 3 should read .018 and .016 respectively, according to the grind of the GP2. This is what Richard has told me, even thought the web site suggests .017 exhaust and .015 intake. The number 3 valve that appears to be flattened a bit reads .025 and counting...

Nothing is loose on the roller rockers, all adjustments appear true.

Even though the website Vettedog referred me to about cams and cam problems suggests cams almost never wear because of metallurgy, this sucker has porosity!

02-17-2008, 09:08 PM
My next move, before I jerk the head and everything else, I cam fabricate a cup on a stick and fill it polysiloxane impression rubber (the kind we take dental impressions with) and stick it up onto the lobe, let it set, then withdraw it and pour it in dental stone. (How may of you can do that!?)

This should prove or disprove my dilemma.

I maintain that this is a defective cam.

Brosky
02-17-2008, 09:10 PM
Bill,

Measure the height of the fully compressed intake on any other cylinder. Then rotate the engine and measure the height of the the spring on number 3 when fully compressed. That is at max lift of the cam, a full open valve. These should be the same.

You are measuring the clearance or valve lash/adjustment spec at .017" - .015"

Brosky
02-17-2008, 09:17 PM
Also, defective cams do not get better when they get hot. Nor do cams with badly worn lobes allow the engine to run very well as all cylinders are not breathing the same.

Your method may or may not prove valuable to Richard in determining the correct shape of the lobe. Having something stick closely to oily parts isn't always accurate or easy, but it just may work.

And defective cams don't get quiet when the get warm and the engine is running well. If you said that the engine was loping or started to skip on acceleration or badly at idle, I'd probably agree that it was the cam.

I truly think that the noise is somewhere else.

Brosky
02-17-2008, 09:25 PM
Bill,

I thought that you were worried strictly about a flattened lobe. I've re-read all of the posts and I just blew up your picture about 20 times, and even though it's not a high resolution, I can see what you are talking about with the potential porosity issue.

You better send this picture to Richard in a full size version.

I'd even like you to email it to me in that format.

02-17-2008, 09:44 PM
My measurements are looking arbitrary. Especially since the battery on my digital measure is blinking.


The vinyl rubber impression material isn't sticky. Vinyl sets and releases clean.

I'm starting to get bleary-eyed. And have a headache.

jessebogan
02-17-2008, 10:20 PM
Actually, a wiped cam will make noise. On MGBs I can tell by listening to the valve clatter. I can't really describe it, but it is a distinctive noise, differant than loose valves. Have you looked at any other lobes? It is a mite unusual to wear out one lobe. With one lobe bad, perhaps a flaw in the hardening process, perhaps even the lifter itself. If you have more than one, perhaps it is the ZDDP oil issue? I see that Moss motors, and others are selling ZDDP additives now to help protect the cams. No matter what, that really sucks.

glemon
02-17-2008, 11:06 PM
Sorry if I missed it but with all the discussion of ZDDP, oil, and cams and lifters I am curious what kind of oil you used for break in and running the motor.

Thanks, and also a question, sounds like the cam can be changed with the engine in place, but a lot of parts need to come off?

2wrench
02-18-2008, 01:11 AM
Bill: Sounds kinda like you're ready to tear into
her. But I can't help but think there might be
something else going on as well, and wouldn't it be
best to leave it together enough to do a little more
research so it's less of a pick and a poke?

That said, been reading a reference book on
rebuilding the Chevy short blocks. They have a
section that talks about listening to various engine
noises with a stethoscope instrument, (quoted affordable).

If you hear this noise on startup with "naked ear,"
maybe the stethoscope method can help you focus more
on an area.

In the reference, they mention different sounds meaning
different things. Where to listen. If you wanted
me to, I can copy just that portion and fax/e-mail, whatever.

Just another idea, short or ripping the engine out
without being too sure of the problem. Cam could have
a problem as well...but wouldn't you hate to install a
new one, only to find the noise is still there?

Sorry. Don't mean to have you chasing your tail.

Best of luck, Bill, and keep us posted. This one
sounds interesting.

amcboy
02-18-2008, 05:20 AM
I'm kinda curious what kind of assembly lube you used, how long you ran with it (the assembly lube) in there, and how long the engine has been running period. In hours not miles.

What RPM did you break the cam in at?

Did you change the oil and filter right after breaking in the cam?

Did you install cam bearings?

How was the engine used prior to the "failure"?


Sorry about 1001 questions, but trying to get a picture here...

Hard to diagnose away from the patient!

02-18-2008, 05:47 AM
To clarify a few points, I went to great pains to do the install of the cam correctly. Yes, the front of the engine comes off along with the head. That means everything. Referring to the Bentley manual, basically you strip the engine down to the bare short block, unbolt the engine mounts, lift the engine an inch or so and remove the cam through the grille opening. A real P.I.A.

When I installed the cam, every part associated with it was new. Since I had the oil pan off several times (new oil pump, new thrust washers) I took the opportunity to stare up into the abyss and check out the lobes of the camshaft, never saw anything that looked like premature wear. This all came as a complete surprise to me. I used the correct break-in procedures, the camshaft was well lathered with break-in lube, the proper break-in rpms and run time were observed, oil dumped and reloaded, etc.

Engine stethoscopes are something that I have used for years.

I think I would rate changing a camshaft as the single most difficult procedure on the entire engine as it is done with the engine in situ. And yes, what the heck was/is that clanking noise has got me more worried than ever. What if the cam is changed and the noise is still there? Bummer.

I don't want the advertisement for me car to read, "Ran when Parked."

And our annual New Orleans car show is in a month. Lookin like this will be the first one I miss in 8 years.

DrEntropy
02-18-2008, 06:24 AM
Dial indicator at the pushrod side of the rocker on another intake as a "base" measurement for full lift, then on the one in question will tell if the lobe is rounded.

With the way the others appear in the photo and knowing the valve adjustments were done by a meticulous dentist, I'm inclined to agree that the hardening process on that lobe was bogus. OTOH, misadjusted lash can have a "work hardening" effect on lobes, too, causing a delamination of the hardened surface. I just can't see that in this circumstance. Very frustrating, no matter the cause. I begin to fear buying ~any~ "new" parts to rebuild these old lumps.

2wrench
02-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Right, Doc. I agree with the part replacement comment.
Scary.

Bill: Of course I should have known you'd be well aware
of stetho approach.

Is it possible to place a sound byte on the Forum?
I can tell you, it if's a cam problem as you suspect,
it would sure be neat to hear what one sounds like.
There is no better value than experience, even if it
comes via cyberspace.

Really sorry, Bill. This sucks.

conan69
02-18-2008, 12:06 PM
This is what is happening with the new EPA oils that are out . I had a engine with 1000 miles since overhaule that came in for an oil leak on the head. Pulled one of lifters out [not sure why] And it looked just like yours. Sent the cam and lifters to our cam grinder and the said that the oils and soft lifters were to blame.. We had them repair the cam. I bought new lifters had them hardness tested and sent them to Elign cams. Had the cam and lifters matched. All this and it can still happen. We need to really look at the oil we are putting in our cars. I have used Castol 20w/50w for long time but the oil analisis is low on zinc and Phosphorus. See if you can fix your cam, Replace your lifters and get back on the road. Hope for the best.

Brosky
02-18-2008, 12:35 PM
This does suck. Especially as I'm getting ready to build a new engine with that cam.

I was going to use my usual Castrol 20W-50W, but now I'm not so sure.

billspit
02-18-2008, 12:44 PM
No problem using the Castrol oil, you just need to add a zinc/phosphorus additive like the GM product. I'm not sure you need to continue using it once the engine is broken in, but would wolkd be cheap insurance.

I too am worried about all this as I am re-assembling my 1500 engine. I am having a quandry as to what cam/lifters to buy.

Brosky
02-18-2008, 12:54 PM
By that, I presume that you mean EOS?

tomshobby
02-18-2008, 01:09 PM
When I built my engine I looked for an oil that had high enough levels of zinc and phosphorus. I have mentioned this before and I agree it sounds funny, but usually an oil that is recommended for farm tractors fits the requirements. It makes sense, they are not under the same restrictions as vehicles used on highways.

I then called oil companies and asked to talk to people that actually knew and could verify the levels.

I talked to a person in R&D at Citgo. The oil I ended up using that fit my requirements is CitGard 500 and I am using 15-40. But because oil formulas are changing rapidly I would suggest that anyone concerned do their own research. There was a thread about oil recently that was interesting.
https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/420324#Post420324

Some say it does not matter what the level of zinc or phosphorus are, that is fine. After the rather large amount I spent on my engine I plan to make the best effort to protect that investment. Too me it is like taking the medicine or the placebo.

Tinster
02-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Hey Bill !! Bummer indeed.

No, I'm not gonna throw any comments about your engine
because I know almost zipsky about auto mechanics.

But a lot of help came my way when I posted a few short
video clips for the experts to listen to my engine problems.

Before you rip your engine apart, set your camera to video
and post the clanking sounds. The Pros will have a better
idea what might be going on with your engine when they can
listen to the clank.

good luck, buddy!!

d

02-18-2008, 02:44 PM
Two views of bad lobe
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/billkaram/lobe1.jpg
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/billkaram/lobe2.jpg

One view of a good lobe

https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/billkaram/lobe3.jpg

conan69
02-18-2008, 03:06 PM
There is no point in running the engine any more. The damage is done as shown in your pic's. It's not going get any better. I'm sure that it is not a problem with Richard's cam, He makes to good of a product and he is one of us. There were some lifters out that were not hard as should have been so anyone building an engine should make sure the lifters are the right hardness. There should be a small ding on the lifter done during testing. If there is no ding i would want to know if they have been tested or not. Also don't settle for random or batch ckecks.


Conan

tomshobby
02-18-2008, 03:07 PM
Bill,
Doesn't look like you need to take it to a lab.

Got the same cam, hope it is not a common problem.

02-18-2008, 03:15 PM
Uck Bill, that sucks.

I reckon you'll be faster pulling the engine by the time you are done to fix it rather than trying to do it in situ..

AltaKnight
02-18-2008, 03:55 PM
Oh my stars!
I've never seen anything like that; it's like it has been galled from lack of lubrication; it will be interesting to see what the tappet looks like.
Can you tell if this is this the only lobe to go bad Bill?
Some metalurgical testing is needed once you get it all apart.

Monkeywrench
02-18-2008, 04:10 PM
There is no point in running the engine any more. The damage is done as shown in your pic's. It's not going get any better. I'm sure that it is not a problem with Richard's cam, He makes to good of a product and he is one of us. There were some lifters out that were not hard as should have been so anyone building an engine should make sure the lifters are the right hardness. There should be a small ding on the lifter done during testing. If there is no ding i would want to know if they have been tested or not. Also don't settle for random or batch ckecks.

Good advice, but I don't think this is the case. If it was then the lifter would have failed (like a hole worn right through it) which I have seen happen. I've also seen lifters shatter, not pretty.

It looks like either an oiling issue, cam defect, or an issue with the top end of the valve train.

Check this out..
https://tonydrews.com/2007-8Rebuild/CamFailure.htm

My .02,

Not that it isn't obvious, but you have bits of metal in the motor. Something to consider...

martx-5
02-18-2008, 04:21 PM
... There should be a small ding on the lifter done during testing. If there is no ding i would want to know if they have been tested or not.

So that's what that little ding was on all of the lifters I just put in my TRactor engine. I was going to ask you guys about that, but now I have the answer. BTW, the lifters came from Ken at British Frame & Engine. They also have holes on the side near the bottom, which I assume is to provide more oil to the cam.

Monkeywrench
02-18-2008, 04:22 PM
... There should be a small ding on the lifter done during testing. If there is no ding i would want to know if they have been tested or not.

So that's what that little ding was on all of the lifters I just put in my TRactor engine. I was going to ask you guys about that, but now I have the answer. BTW, the lifters came from Ken at British Frame & Engine. They also have holes on the side near the bottom, which I assume is to provide more oil to the cam.

Ken is one of very few sources for good lifters for the Triumph motors. Most of the racing TRactor folk get their lifters from him.

RonMacPherson
02-18-2008, 05:20 PM
As far as the cam being defective. A good metallurgist can determine the finish treatment of the cam. Not that expensive. A lot of machine shops can perform the rockwell hardness test.....

billspit
02-18-2008, 05:23 PM
By that, I presume that you mean EOS?

Indeed. Although they may have renamed it.

martx-5
02-18-2008, 05:35 PM
Actually, GM stopped supplying the stuff. Then there was a big demand, so they started carrying it again. I don't know what the current status is. However, there is another supplier of a similar product. Moss is now carrying that stuff. (https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=65970) /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif

Brosky
02-18-2008, 05:56 PM
This is getting more depressing by the minute.

https://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

Edit:

Here's another picture of the GM Lube.

https://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/photo_05.html

Good tip on the Moss product as well.

02-18-2008, 05:58 PM
I can take the tappets out without removing the head by holding them up individually with those little magnetic wands for retrieving lost iron screws and the like. Just get a dozen of these and suck them up high to slide the cam out. They should just fall down after the cam is gone. Just reverse the procedure and hold the new ones up with the magnetic wands. I really hate to remove the head, carbs, intake and exhaust manifolds. Am I off in my thinking.


Course, really would like to know what that intake valve looks like. Can inspect that valve spring from the top for cracks, even use a spring tester, maybe.

Not a good day.

02-18-2008, 06:06 PM
Oh, and those images I show with my dental intra-oral camera with a macro lens. Did that at lunch and sent them to the photo express where they converted the film negatives to digital on a cd.

Guess I need to clean it now.......

DNK
02-18-2008, 06:37 PM
Is that what
Oh, and those images I show with my dental intra-oral camera with a macro lens. Did that at lunch and sent them to the photo express where they converted the film negatives to digital on a cd.

Guess I need to clean it now.......

Oh, that explains the extra charge on my insurance /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

02-18-2008, 06:41 PM
I'd rather be pulling teeth.....

Brosky
02-18-2008, 06:54 PM
I'm just glad that the next ones you pull or fill won't be mine.

Maybe Richard Good's, but not mine.....

AltaKnight
02-18-2008, 06:59 PM
Bill.....
It should work to use the magnets to hold the tappets up during the camshaft changeout but you'll have to enlist some help to do it; so after the camshaft is out you can catch the falling tappet as the magnet is removed by the helper; might be a bit tricky getting new tappets into position from underneath; you might have to use another extending magnetic pickup to place them in the right spot.
Should work though.

Twosheds
02-18-2008, 07:49 PM
Check this out..
https://tonydrews.com/2007-8Rebuild/CamFailure.htm

Now that just galls me!

02-18-2008, 08:20 PM
Any chance redlining (5500 rpm) the car for about 30 seconds in 2nd gear may have caused/contributed to this galling?

Any chance the intake valve is affected by this galling?

Any chance my gall bladder will be affected?

I kinda wish I hadn't stopped drinking 20+ years ago.

DNK
02-18-2008, 08:26 PM
Any chance redlining (5500 rpm) the car for about 30 seconds in 2nd gear may have caused/contributed to this galling?

I think the cams new reline is higher than 5500

Monkeywrench
02-18-2008, 08:38 PM
Any chance redlining (5500 rpm) the car for about 30 seconds in 2nd gear may have caused/contributed to this galling?

Any chance the intake valve is affected by this galling?

Any chance my gall bladder will be affected?

I kinda wish I hadn't stopped drinking 20+ years ago.


- No

- No

I almost think this is a component failure as it is contained to one (1) lobe.

If it were oil related or a driving issue, you would probally see wear on other lobes.

It might be the cam, lifter and/or something on the top end of the valve train. Are you using stock valve springs?

There is an EXCELLENT thread on https://www.speedtalk.com about Triumph tappets. You have to be a member of the site to view the thread as it is in the "Advanced Engine Tech" . Once a member, search "TR4" and the thread is titled "Tappets - Domed or Flat?"

Brosky
02-18-2008, 08:41 PM
If running it at 5,500 would affect the engine, mine would have blown a long time ago.

I don't think that the intake was affected. You caught it before the lobe disappeared and the pushrod dropped and all of that bad stuff that could have happened didn't.

I know this wasn't the cause, but back in the 80's and early 90's when I running the Cadillac shop, we had the infamous HT4100, which ironically is now the best engine that they ever made in it's Northstar version.

But I digress. The intake manifold never sealed properly on those cars and coolant (anti-freeze) would begin to leak into the oil and with anywhere from 1,500 to 3,000 miles, one or two lobes would be gone on the cam.

Why the cam and not the mains? The leak from the coolant passages between the head and intake gasket went right down into the valley where the camshaft sits in the middle of a V-8 engine. It would dilute the oil and probably got directly on the cam and led to their early demise.

From 83 through 90, I had two guys who would just R&R engines while three others rebuilt them. We had a 24 hour turn around on an engine swap. We found a machine shop that would install cam bearings, thereby saving the aluminum blocks and saving GM big $$$$.

jessebogan
02-18-2008, 08:50 PM
Actually, there is a slight chance that revving it *could* have done it. If you have a weak valve spring on that cylinder, and had "valve bounce" happen, that can take out a lobe and lifter pretty quickly. If you are taking the head off anyway, it might be worth having the springs checked. Any decent machine shop should have the equipment to do so. Otherwise, I would suspect the lifter itself. If it was not hardened properly, and failed, it will ruin the cam in short order. Forensic auto repair sucks. I get to do this a lot, but if you don't, you can fix a symptom, and not the problem.

Monkeywrench
02-18-2008, 08:56 PM
Actually, there is a slight chance that revving it *could* have done it. If you have a weak valve spring on that cylinder, and had "valve bounce" happen, that can take out a lobe and lifter pretty quickly. If you are taking the head off anyway, it might be worth having the springs checked.

+1

Most engine machine shops can easily check the valve spring seat pressure.

It could go the other way. If you bought a head with unspecified "stronger" aftermarket springs, there is a chance whomever built the head used springs that were too strong.

But like it has been said, send your oil out to be analyzed and have a very good machinist / metallurgist look at the cam.

Brosky
02-18-2008, 08:56 PM
Good points Jesse. I thought that Bill had replaced all of the springs with new GP units and had a machine shop valve job done, so I "assumed" that they would have tested the springs.

And I know, "assuming", can lead to a lot of forensic auto repair.......

Come to think of it, we still haven't pinned down the clatter for certain.

PlaidMan
02-18-2008, 09:00 PM
Bill, had a 78 Spitfire 1500 with stock cam and lifters fail on one lobe, but there wasn't any pitting on the lobe but instead was confined to the lifter itself and just wore the lobe down. I would be interested to see the bottom of that lifter but it looks to me like a cam defect and or an oiling problem. Good luck with it , Hope you can make the BMCNO Show. Charlie

2wrench
02-19-2008, 01:26 AM
Greg at British Parts Northwest had interesting
comments regarding cams. Before selling car parts
for a living, he built engines (Triumphs, I think)
for years. Decided it would be a lot easier to
make his money selling parts instead of turning a
wrench. That's how he started his parts sales business.

2wrench
02-19-2008, 01:37 AM
Any chance redlining (5500 rpm) the car for about 30 seconds in 2nd gear may have caused/contributed to this galling?

Any chance the intake valve is affected by this galling?

Any chance my gall bladder will be affected?

I kinda wish I hadn't stopped drinking 20+ years ago.


Bill: You got me laughing out loud with this one.
That's funny.

2wrench
02-19-2008, 01:44 AM
I'd rather be pulling teeth.....

Bill: Got to get to the root of the problem.
Okay, not that funny.

Laughing gas?? Now that would be funny.

Reminds me of a Pink Panther film.....

70herald
02-19-2008, 02:08 AM
Two views of bad lobe
https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/billkaram/lobe1.jpg


Bill <span style="color: #FF0000">what is that line across the cam lobe? is it present on the other lobes?</span>
I don't have a camshaft handy right now but I don't think there should be a line across the lobe like that. looks to me like it might be ground improperly causing to the lifter to jump which is what caused all that pitting. The wear on the other side would the have been caused later as a result of damage to the lifter.

70herald
02-19-2008, 02:14 AM
I almost think this is a component failure as it is contained to one (1) lobe.

If it were oil related or a driving issue, you would probally see wear on other lobes.

It might be the cam, lifter and/or something on the top end of the valve train. Are you using stock valve springs?





As a mechanical engineer who had spent the last few years in failure analysis I would have to agree that this is most likely a component failure. My guess looking at the pictures is that either their was a casting defect in the raw camshaft which left some sort of porosity at the cam surface or that the individual lifter was defective. It will be very interesting to see exactly what it looks like.



I would like to shed a bit of light on two other issues here

1. the break in cycle @ 2000 rpm is needed in order to ensure that sufficient oil reaches the cam shaft. The oil lines which reach the camshaft only supply oil to the camshaft BEARINGS. There is (and only should be) a small amount of oil in the engine head. This oil has no effect at all on the camshaft lobes or bottom of the lifter. The little hole drilled into the side of some lifters slightly improves the lubrication between the lifter bore and lifter. This is not the problem in Bill's case.

While these or any other engine for that mater are running there is an absolute tornado going on inside the crankcase. Oil flung off of the crankshaft is what provides the oil to the cam shaft lobes and lifters. At low RPM, this is simply insufficient to properly oil the cam particularly for long periods of time.

2. The reduction in ZDDP. ZDDP (it is the combination of the zinc and phosphorus which protect the metal surface) was with us since approximately the 50's. Modern good quality oils now include other additives which accomplish the same effect. In particular there is Molybdenum disulfide which similar to zinc will stick to steel surfaces and protect them.

Now in the hot rod world where most of the talk about oil / ZDDP has come from there are a bunch of other things going on. Many engine builders are adding scrapers windage screens and all sorts of other stuff to their engines to reduce power loss to airflow in the crank case. ALL of these additions have the side effect of starving the camshaft of oil. Add that to the problem of poor quality parts etc, and lots of camshafts are going to fail. In my opinion I am rather less than convinced that the problem is with the oil than with all sorts of other changes people are making to their engines without understanding what all the side effects are.

Monkeywrench
02-19-2008, 08:12 AM
Here is a post from that https://www.speedtalk.com thread I referenced ..

I'm not sure of the TR4 tappets, here is a bit of info stemming from my research and testing of TR6/Spit tappets.

The Spitfire/TR6 requires a dead flat lifter face. The camshaft lobes are ground with zero taper. Rotation of the lifter is achieved only through the offset of the lifter centerline in relation to the lobe. It is quite possible that this is the case for the TR4 as well.

A while ago I conducted a lifter survey of the TR6 lifters, including two NOS (New Old Stock) lifters I had on the shelf from 35 years ago. Here are the results:

(EDIT: Sorry for the image, but I couldn't get the table to show correctly as plain text in the message)

https://www.wishboneclassics.com/wishbone-tr6-lifter-specs.jpg

"A" and "B" designations are different lifters (either different brand or
different all together) from the same supplier.

Radius is given in inches.

All of these TR6 lifters being ground very convex is one of the reasons for the high rate of failure over the last few years coupled with individuals building street engines with excessively high valve spring rates.

You'll note that even the used lifters have wear, I knew that one of them
had pretty severe wear, and I could see it. But I don't know the full
history of that motor, the used lifters were pulled randomly from two
different parts engines in the shop. But one thing that is consistent from
the used and NOS lifters is the trouble Triumph went through to polish the
lifter face to provide a very smooth surface finish.

It seems Triumph was rather unique in their approach to grinding tappets dead flat. MG T Series lifters were also ground flat, but even Austin MG changed their approach on this matter and for instance the B Series tappet should have a 32in radius.

Kai @ Wishbone Classics

DrEntropy
02-19-2008, 08:18 AM
In my opinion I am rather less than convinced that the problem is with the oil than with all sorts of other changes people are making to their engines without understanding what all the side effects are.

So true.

I think we're lookin' at the source of the "clatter". I would be VERY reluctant to just schtupp in a cam/lifter replacement. The oil filter cannot be counted on to catch all the residue from that failure. Engine out, disassemble. Clean/check everything with a bearing surface. That missing lobe material is spread thru the rest of the engine.

rats.

tomshobby
02-19-2008, 08:38 AM
That missing lobe material is spread thru the rest of the engine.

Doc, yer saying like a failure waiting to happen?

As far as the Goodparts lifter surface being flat or curved. I remember opening the package of Goodparts lifters and noticing that the lifters were stuck together if the surfaces the cam contacts were together and only came apart easily by sliding them apart. I did not check beyond that but it tells me those surfaces are smooth and flat.

Monkeywrench
02-19-2008, 08:44 AM
That missing lobe material is spread thru the rest of the engine.

Doc, yer saying like a failure waiting to happen?

I alluded to that in my first post. Those peices of metal are small enough to travel through oil gallery's throughout the motor. It could be ugly if they make it to the crank...

vettedog72
02-19-2008, 09:27 AM
[quote=tomshobby][quote=DrEntropy]That missing lobe material is spread thru the rest of the engine.

Would this material have to pass through the oil pump and oil filter (assume the bypass is not open) BEFORE it reaches other pressure lubed parts?

02-19-2008, 09:32 AM
You guys bring me such joy!

So, let's have a survey. Jerk the engine and rebuild or just schlup in a new cam and lifters.

My biggest problem with a total take down is there is no one, I repeat, no one within 150 miles of me that will do such. I would have to trail it to Mississippi to a guy that is, let's say, hard to deal with.

What a revolting development.

(My thoughts are leaning to schlupping......)

02-19-2008, 09:33 AM
Pardon me, "Schtupping."

Tinster
02-19-2008, 10:06 AM
no one within 150 miles of me that will do such.

Bummer bad for you Bill.

Now, you offered me much sound advice with no one
within 1,200 miles of me to help me. Ask yourself what
advice you would give ME if I had posted the photos of
that wrecked cam?

regards,

d

TR6oldtimer
02-19-2008, 10:59 AM
You guys bring me such joy!
....
(My thoughts are leaning to schlupping......)

Get out your tools. Make your life easy, yank the head so you can have the valve train inspected. Yank the oil pump and clean. Yank the cam and replace.

Put it all back together and get on with it.

Work with the vendor to determine what caused the cam to fail.

Look at this as a toothache. Just take care of it.

At least where you live it is not snowing.

RonMacPherson
02-19-2008, 12:35 PM
Has anyone else researched the claim that STP has ZDDP in it. Just heard that from another forum, haven't had the opportunity to check it out myself. If so, it seems an interesting resolution to the lack of ZDDP is available.

gjh2007
02-19-2008, 12:38 PM
Just a note on poor quality components, or defects, as I cannot attest to Richards product. But I had a new 4.0 short block installed in my '88 Range Rover by a factory trained Rover mech a few years back. I decided to have a slightly modded cam (Erskin) installed to get a little more HP for towing my boat.

Well, $6500 latter, including a bunch of other stuff I gets me truck back. Installed a VDO oil gauge as did not come stock on the truck. Pressure good all around. A week after I got it back I was sitting in the truck idleing for 10-15 mins & could hear a slight clicking in the top of the engine. After the shop listened, they tore down the top end & found by micing that there was a bad lobe on the cam right out of the factory.

A rather nasty job to do it all over, including Johnson Bros adjustable pushrods.

Ended up going back to OEM factory stock cam & never had the prob.

My shop tells me he had 4 out of 7 bad cams on rebuilds he had done in 6 mos.

Fortunetely it wasn't a wear issue & no major rebuild was necess.

Good luck with your problem, keep us posted, we are all thinking of you.

tomshobby
02-19-2008, 01:00 PM
I understand what you are saying Gary, but are there even any NOS OEM factory stock cams in existence? I would think they would have long ago been used up and all that is left now are after market replacements.

2wrench
02-19-2008, 02:09 PM
Bill: I am so sorrowful that I hardly know what to say.
Everything we do is subject to some element of risk.

I think you really do know what to do. Assess your
risks and proceed.

My concern? Is a pitted lobe and appertenances all
there is to the problem?

I know I'm not the mechanic, so I rely on common
sense in forming my questions.

What makes a pitted lobe cause a clanking noise
(or however described) and then it goes away?

Does heat cause expansion correcting the problem?
I mean, I really don't know. Just seems quizical.
In any case, I know you don't like it and you want it
out.

Dang, it's kinda like telling a Cover Girl model
she's got to lose that canine. Choices? Flipper?
Implant? Nothing? Cut down more teeth and do a
bridge? How's the bone look?

Sorry, Bill, really sorry.

PS: I'd still love to hear the noise. Guess I won't
if the pan's off, huh? Just a little selfish, I guess,
or maybe someone would recognize it?

Wishing you the best always,

Moseso
02-19-2008, 02:29 PM
Last spring I tore down my TR3 motor. This motor was probably rebuilt in the early '80s. I bought the car in '83 -- drove it about 2000 miles that year, and then put it up until I could address it's problems. (Yes, it's been that long...) The motor seemed strong. Last spring I found a very clean crank, -.010"; good main and con rod bearings; 87 mm pistons and jugs within spec, and showing no serious wear. The head had more problems: Stem and guide wear, seat pocketing, a grooved up rocker shaft -- the things one would expect to find.

Also, a cam shaft that had one lobe that looked just like Bill's and another one headed in that direction. The lifters associated with those lobes were hacked too.

I've been following the cam/tappet/lubricants/break-in threads with great interest. I am putting in an Iskenderian "TR-23" cam: .440" lift, 260 duration, and new "heavy-duty, lightened" tappets from BPNW. This motor probably won't get fired-up until late summer. I am armed with all sorts of good recommendations for oils and break-in procedure. Boy... I hope I don't see another cam lobe like that any time soon!

2wrench
02-19-2008, 02:30 PM
Can't leave it alone. How about you pull the head,
take two aspirin, contact us the next morning with
what you see and I'll bet you'll be guided to the
next step and the next and......

Don't throw that mouse, Bill, don't throw that mouse!

martx-5
02-19-2008, 05:22 PM
Has anyone else researched the claim that STP has ZDDP in it. Just heard that from another forum, haven't had the opportunity to check it out myself. If so, it seems an interesting resolution to the lack of ZDDP is available.

Moss motors now carries ZDDP additives and motor oil with ZDDP. (https://www.mossmotors.com/Browse/ComponentMenuNewProducts.aspx?WebCatalogID=35&PlateTypeID=4) /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

DrEntropy
02-19-2008, 05:42 PM
I've seen 'em go that way from poor maintainence, tight adjustment, poor quality control et al. I've fitted Crane cams with good success. No experience with the Kent ones. Talking with the company rep's is a good start. Photos are good enough to show the problem, too. The oil likely went to 50W as temp increased so cushioned the "shock" a bit to make the noise less evident.
Just my guess. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

02-19-2008, 05:53 PM
And just now I find out that GoodParts has no GP2 cams in stock on don't expect them for a couple of weeks. TRF handles their cams and is out as well (waiting for Richard to send them some). So I am dead in the water for at lest 3 more weeks. So much for the New Orleans car show at the end of March. Does anyone have a spare new GP2 cam laying around for an early TR6? Brosky??

Spoke with the owner of British Frame and Engine, for an hour (nice guy, man can he talk, 75-year-old) and got a lot of info on lifters. The really high end ones need to have the block bored, for the lifters yet. That ain't gonna happen.

Spoke to others (Dave, Richard) at length and have come to the conclusion that there are no super lifters out there, at least for my application.

So now I am torn between taking the head off, as suggested above, or just try the magnet trick with the head in place.

Taking the engine down completely is not an option, not yet.

So, there she sits, up on jack stands, all lonely in the garage. I think I might put my garage stereo on low and put some Smashing Pumpkins on low and chill.

I'm sad.

DNK
02-19-2008, 06:13 PM
If I remember right you don't drink anymore so sounds like time for an Arnold Palmer put your feet up and think about the next car.
You know it wasn't that long ago you were talking about selling it.

<span style='font-size: 26pt'><span style='font-family: Comic Sans MS'>TOO LATE</span></span>

TR6oldtimer
02-19-2008, 06:42 PM
Look to the bright side, maybe it is an opportunity for a different cam.

https://www.hottr6.com/triumph/tr6cams.html

Brosky
02-19-2008, 07:06 PM
Bill,

If I had a new GP-2 cam in my hands, it would be on a UPS truck to you tomorrow. That's one of the reasons that I wasn't rushing the machine shop with my work. I knew from being at TRF and talking to Rich, that they were out.

And I don't want to make you sadder, but I've taken too many engines apart that lost a cam lobe. That material is somewhere in the engine and that would most likely be in the oil galleys and to a large degree, the oil filter.

BUT, not a large enough degree to risk wiping out a crankshaft.

I don't like saying it, but my vote is for a complete tear down. I fear that if you don't do it now, the cost will be much higher later.

BryanC
02-19-2008, 09:34 PM
The oil likely went to 50W as temp increased so cushioned the "shock" a bit to make the noise less evident.

I don't think I follow that. Oil viscosity goes down as the temperature increases - even on multi-viscosity grades. 20W50 will drop in viscosity as temp. goes up. It just doesn't drop as much as a straight 20W. I don't understand how lower oil viscosity makes the noise go away.


Bryan

2wrench
02-19-2008, 10:05 PM
Bill: Basil seemd to give this custom cam shaft
builder a good referral:

https://www.elgincams.com/index.html


Maybe he can deliver sooner.

2wrench
02-19-2008, 10:15 PM
You know what, there, Bill, get a cam and try the
magnet thing. I mean, you gotta go with your comfort
level, right? It's cool. Hey, if it doesn't work,
what's the worst? You gotta rebuild her?

So you spend a little extra time fiddling trying to
make it work. It would sure be nice to idenify the
location of the noise; i.e., a specific cylinder/piston.
If it's just one cylinder issue, you can do less than
total machining everthing if you find the cam/magnet
doesn't quiet her proper.

AltaKnight
02-19-2008, 11:25 PM
I'm not sure I agree that the lobe material will be in the oil galleries; it's going to end up in the oil sump and I would have thought the filter would catch all of it since those things are designed to catch micron sizes aren't they?
I would tear apart the oil pump and pay attention to the oil passage from pump to filter though.
I would go for schlepping? in a new cam and new lifters with the magnet trick and gobs of that special break in grease.
But I'm still worried about what that noise you reported was; did it have a failing cam kind of sound (whatever that's like) to it?

Opa
02-20-2008, 12:01 AM
/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif along with that I would pull a main bearing and rod cap and chech them out.I'd pull the back one and check thrust washers at the same time,the pans off now anyway.

RonMacPherson
02-20-2008, 12:28 AM
Have you done a search for Engel cams in the bay area. Years ago I phoned the gent who makes Triumph cams. He was very knowledgeable, and willing to spend time exchanging his information for my questions. Might be able to clue you in.

DrEntropy
02-20-2008, 07:01 AM
The oil likely went to 50W as temp increased so cushioned the "shock" a bit to make the noise less evident.

I don't think I follow that. Oil viscosity goes down as the temperature increases - even on multi-viscosity grades. 20W50 will drop in viscosity as temp. goes up. It just doesn't drop as much as a straight 20W. I don't understand how lower oil viscosity makes the noise go away.


Bryan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

Specifically:

To bring the difference in viscosities closer together, special polymer additives called viscosity index improvers, or VIs are added to the oil. These additives make the oil a multi-grade motor oil. The idea is to cause the multi-grade oil to have the viscosity of the base number when cold and the viscosity of second number when hot. This enables one type of oil to be generally used all year, and when multi-grades were initially developed, they were frequently described as all-season oil.

70herald
02-20-2008, 08:44 AM
Hey Doc
Actually Brian is quite right.

A 20w50 oil would have a viscosity of ~60cSt at 40C (modern test are at much lower temperatures) which is the "cold" or Winter viscosity. At 100C. The viscosity is closer to 18cSt, a significant reduction in viscosity the viscosity of this oil at low temperature.
A straight weight 50 oil would have had a viscosity of nearly 250cSt at low temperature.

Basically the first # is the viscosity equivalent of a straight viscosity oil at a low temperature and the second # is the equivalent of a straight viscosity oil at 100C. however, and somewhat confusing, despite lower <u>viscosity index</u> at low temperature, the <u>viscosity</u> at the low temp will almost always be HIGHER than the viscosity at the High index temp.

for a conversion chart:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

DrEntropy
02-20-2008, 09:30 AM
My comment was about the index. I get the 'thinner at temp' thingie.

Good link, too.

02-20-2008, 05:54 PM
OK, I am gonna jerk the head and send it to a good machine shop up the road (highly recommended by a local mechanic) and have them reset the valves and generally give the thing a good going over.

Question, and I should know this, what is the best way to unbolt the head? Should it be done in torqued sequencing, a little at a time in reverse order of installation? And, any problems reusing the head studs and nuts (ARP). Of course I will use a new gasket. (TRF now has sourced their head gaskets from a different manufacturer, no good info on them. Anyone know of the best quality head gasket or does it matter?)

The cam should be in in about 2 weeks.

TR6oldtimer
02-20-2008, 06:41 PM
I remove the head as you described, in reverse order a little at a time. I would also not have a problem reusing the studs and nuts given the are near new.

Have fun...

2wrench
02-20-2008, 06:58 PM
Bill: Brosky endorses a Payem head gasket, unless, of
course, this is old info.

RonMacPherson
02-20-2008, 08:11 PM
Fel-Pro also makes a gasket that is very durable.

amcboy
02-20-2008, 08:21 PM
I like Fel-Pro.

Brosky
02-20-2008, 09:06 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]TRF now has sourced their head gaskets from a different manufacturer, no good info on them. [/QUOTE]

Bill,

Talk to Daveand tell him that you want Payen gaskets. They have them and they use them on their rebuilds as well. See picture of engine leaving their shop two weeks ago today.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] what is the best way to unbolt the head? Should it be done in torqued sequencing, a little at a time in reverse order of installation?[/QUOTE]

Yes!

I would reverse the torque sequence incrementally to remove the head properly.

billspit
02-21-2008, 01:00 PM
I called TRF last week about buying gasket sets and other parts for my Spitfire engine project. I specifically told the guy I was talking to (not Dave, but don't recall who) I wanted Payen gaskets. He checked and said the gaskets were made by somebody other that Payen. I think he said Affinia (same people that now own Wix filters). I think this person was new and not too familiar with car parts, because he had no clue what ARP bolts were. I still haven't ordered the gaskets, but may give them another try. BPNW and TSI both have the Payen gaskets.

davidk
02-21-2008, 01:56 PM
I recently changed out my head gasket due to an oil leak on the drivers side towards the back. I used the TRF gasket (can't remember the brand). It has some sort of powder residue on it. I did call TRF to ask about gasket sealant. They recommended the copper sealer which I did use. At that time they told me they didn't carry Payen, and the gasket I received is the one they use on their rebuilds.
The new gasket leaks worse than the original. I may have overtorqued the studs. I was using ARP lubricant, but torqued to about 75 as in the manual. After seeing recent threads about torquing heads, I think that may have been too much with that lubricant. The head appears flat with a straight edge. I really didn't want to have any major head work done right now to have that verified. I have now ordered and received the Payen set from BPN. I have also ordered ARP studs from Summitt. They should be here next week. So, hopefully I'll have better results with the Payen gasket. I'm considering using a different sealer (permatex) along the drivers side edge. Any thoughts on that? Once was enough. Twice is too much. I don't want to have to change the head gasket again for a long time.

02-22-2008, 11:48 AM
Well, I got the head off and found a few more surprises! First, that #3 cam follower looked just like the lobe, major eaten up and pitted. The others look fine. Took the head to an area machine shop to check it out...spring pressure, valves, etc. Two of my exhaust valves are leaking, all oily and black on the stems. Will wonders never cease. The machinist will take the head completely apart, re-do the valves, check the springs (I gave him some spring pressure specs), magnaflux the whole thing and reassemble. Should have back in 5 days.
Now to take the front of the engine off (radiator, pulley, cover, etc.) to pull that cam.

Guess I will look at some bearings while under there. All this while trying to throw a crawfish boil for 20 friends of my son and get ready to go see Irma Thomas rock at the casino.

Too many balls in the air.

Opa
02-22-2008, 12:24 PM
Sounds to me like the lifter may have been the culprit,starting a galling process with the cam lobe. I would have the new tappets checked for hardness at a machine shop, or have seller of same verify rockwell numbers for his product.I was told you don't want anything softer than rockwell 54.
anybody in your area able to check the damaged lifter for rockwell hardness? That could answer the question.

02-22-2008, 01:53 PM
Now that I have taken the other lifters out, they all are showing varying degrees of breakdown! Yes, I ordered hardened lifters along with a new cam.

hondo402000
02-23-2008, 08:29 AM
my understanding is when things are case hardened its only a few thousands thick, I read when crankshafts and cams are hardened they are put in a furnace with ammonia gas which creats a hardened surface, if you wear through the surface it wears out fast from there