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View Full Version : Rebuild questions -- feeling a bit nervous



2wrench
01-08-2008, 05:40 AM
Excited. Nervous. The major components for the
engine rebuild came in. I took them to the machine
shop, as they requested.

What kinds of oil(s) should I purchase for putting
the engine back together?

Saved threads on gasket sealers somewhere; if anybody
remembers, I was impressed with a product that had been used
by Catepillar repair shops, as a somewhat noteworthy
description. If anybody remembers what gasket sealant
this is, please note it for me. Otherwise, I'll dig.
Could be on an old hard drive that went south on me
that I could try to restore.

So I have requested to have the machine shop balance
the engine; they have, therefore, requested the
main bearing caps; pistons; crank; rods and their caps;
both sets of valves; springs; valve guides; connecting
rod bushings; connecting rod bearings.

I note I left (maybe inadvertently) with the thrust
washers. I think to balance, he'll need those, right?

Now, doesn't he have to install the crank in order
to balance? Would he also install the cam, in order
to balance?

Can I order a "bolt set," or something, for the moment
I try to put something back together and cannot find
a bolt? I figure this will likely happen. Missing
one from the thermo housing already.

I know, it would be easy to simply ask the machine
shop; but, I'm nervous and feel like I want to keep
my dumb questions to a minimum. Figure you guys
expect this of me. Feels good to say I'm ignorant
and have it be okay, while I try to grow from this
experience.

And yes, it is a very early hour of 2:38 a.m. Preparing
to leave for work. I'll arrive quite early, then sleep
in the car. (Crazy Californians). My work has trained
me over the years to be kind of like a doctor who learns
to sleep anywhere....like standing up.

Nervous ramblings,

DrEntropy
01-08-2008, 06:12 AM
heh. Nervous is good, 2. You ideally only want to do this once. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Your shop is doing top-end (head) and block, right? The head work is a seperate task from the balancing.

All the "spinny things" need to go to them. Including flywheel and clutch assembly (sans T/O bearing) for them to truly balance it. Thrust bearings too.

For the bolts, replacing the mains and rod cap ones would be good practice. Order by size/pitch individually. The "usual supplier" is these guys: https://www.arp-bolts.com/

This will affect the balancing process, IOW the bolts should go with the rest of the assembly to the shop for the balancing proceedure.

Gordo
01-08-2008, 08:01 AM
2W,

I've been following your rebuild and it seems you have received terrific advice from the members.

Here's mine: RELAX!!!! I don't think this is your primary driver so HAVE SOME FUN. I've always made sure that my hobby relieved stress and when it caused it, I backed off. If your not on a tight schedule, throttle back a little and take your time. As DR. E said, you only want to do this once. We have to take something like this with correct mind set or we make mistakes.

My 2 cents.

Gordo

Tinkerman
01-08-2008, 08:50 AM
Right on Gordo! You can worry yourself into a nervous breakdown so like he said, backoff, relax and it will come together.
I just put my rocker arm assembly back together. Put the collars on with roll pins. Did not try it on before I roll pinned the collars. Big mistake! I put it together backwards! Rookie error what a pain to take it apart and redo it.
Point is "dodo occurs" so you have to learn to roll with the punches and forge ahead.
We are so fortunate to have the BCF to express ourselves with. You'll be OK 2wrench!
Cheers, Tinkerman

rlandrum
01-08-2008, 10:08 AM
And don't hesitate to be up front with them. Tell them you've never done this before. In my experience, that's the best way to find out new things. They'll make suggestions and recommendations, and in the end, you'll end up with a better finished product.

If you go in there and pretend like you know everything, they'll know, and might give you less than you expect.

When I rebuilt my small block chevy, I'd never done any engine work before. Steep learning curve... But every chance I got I asked questions. I asked forums, neighbors, machine shop guys, pretty much anyone who would listen... And it payed off.

TR3driver
01-08-2008, 10:38 AM
Thrust washers on a TR6 do not rotate, so no need to have them balanced. Balancing is done outside the block, so nothing gets "installed" for the process.

Camshafts turn relatively slowly and are relatively small diameter; generally they are not balanced.

Don't know about the Caterpillar sealant; I like Hylomar which was originally developed by Rolls Royce.

Also don't know of anyone offering a complete bolt set for the engine. But most of the bolts(with the notable exception of bearing cap and flywheel bolts) are just ordinary hardware store stuff, so readily available if you are missing something.

Just a reminder (in case you missed it before); if you are going to have the modification to add another thrust washer, now is the time to do it.

sp53
01-08-2008, 12:02 PM
Hi 2 wrench and good fortune with your rebuild. There is no substitute for experience, so learn from your experience and ask a lot of questions. I can usually tell a new comer, so just be yourself. What I do in a case like this is never throw anything away because you never know what you might need for a reference or a pattern, especially in the nut and bolt area. Many bolts are going to have different shoulders and length that are critical and are going to be very difficult to replicate and in some cases if you put the wrong bolt or washer in you can damage the engine. I try and avoid using silicone products because if they are used in a trapped area they will not cure and if you use too much the over spill can come loose in the engine and plug oil or water passages. I understand that Hylomar is a very good product; however, sometimes you need to use a more watery product like Indian Head Gasket Sealer and sometimes you do not want to use any sealer, so it just depends.
Sp53

DNK
01-08-2008, 12:10 PM
Hey 2 ,Are they going to pin the washers?

2wrench
01-09-2008, 05:30 AM
Well, Don, you know, I thought I'd just put the original little buggers back in there and learn to
watch the little devils more closely with the idea
that I can drop the pan and put one or two in, as
necessary.

That's kind of what this learning process is, for me.
Seems doable. Pin 'em and now you gotta open her
up more cesarean style in order to replace them.

Beauty in simplicty, if you know how to replace them.

Think I'm making a mistake?

amcboy
01-09-2008, 05:34 AM
This only stupid questions are those that go unasked...

In my expierence most, even where I'm at now, lathe weiners love to show off their skill and prowess.

Dispensing valuable knowledge is one of those ways.

Ask their opinons, and the machining world is your oyster...

I agree with the choice of ARP for fasteners. Truly top shelf!

RTV (room temprature vulcanizing) type sealants are fine in my expierences if used properly. "Properly", of course has started more bar fights than can likely be addressed. But IMHO less than you think you need is probably slightly too much. Never had one not cure... Even under bolts (seriously not recommended). For things like rocker gaskets I apply a veeery thin coat to both sides and wait 15-20 minutes in the summer and longer in the winter and then apply it to the seating surfaces. This "skin" time will keep the engine from being a total gloopy mess, and will remind you why hammering nails into the walls of your garage is OK.

Your mileage may vary.

2wrench
01-09-2008, 05:47 AM
Thanks for everything. Truth be told, I really look
forward to the hobby side of driving; watching the
sun set; dinner at some hole in the wall place discovered
in the backwoods gold country; a bottle of wine in the
shade of a tree; the pur of the engine; being in the
wind and fresh air; having the reason for getting
away...

Yeah. I like the driving part way better. And it is
just killing me cause I just worked real hard to paint
her up pretty.

I'll admit that I am antsy cause come spring, I want
her on the road and well. I promise to try to mellow,
though, okay?

A sincere expression of gratitude,

70herald
01-09-2008, 06:32 AM
h
For the bolts, replacing the mains and rod cap ones would be good practice. Order by size/pitch individually. The "usual supplier" is these guys: https://www.arp-bolts.com/

If you have parts #'s from arp call up Summit racing. I got a much better price from them than the other sources. Shipped directly from the ARP factory so the fact that Summit doesn't normally deal with Triumphs is irrelevant. The ARP hardware is as close to a work of art as a bolt could possibly be.

DrEntropy
01-09-2008, 08:32 AM
Thrust washers on a TR6 do not rotate, so no need to have them balanced. Balancing is done outside the block, so nothing gets "installed" for the process.

<snippage>

Just a reminder (in case you missed it before); if you are going to have the modification to add another thrust washer, now is the time to do it.

TAKE the thrust washers. Ask them to check the crank end float while it's there, add the other set for peace of mind and longevity.

Brosky
01-09-2008, 12:23 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Just a reminder (in case you missed it before); if you are going to have the modification to add another thrust washer, now is the time to do it. [/QUOTE]

Just where is the detail available for that modification? I'll need it for my block next month.

TR3driver
01-09-2008, 06:24 PM
Surely someone has done a nice article with photos, but I don't know where. Here's a write-up though :
https://www.tr6web.com/Documents/tr6/mjbtwasherfix.html

Written from the Spitfire point of view, but applies equally well to TR6.

2wrench
01-10-2008, 11:06 AM
Sounds somewhat involved and therefore risky.
Maybe with more experience, it will look more worth
going after. As for now, I think I'll drop the
pan and pop in the $7 fix when called for.

TheSearcherMan
01-10-2008, 06:16 PM
If you have never put an engine together, you would be wise to get someone to come over and help you who has done this with success in the past. The odds that anyone can do this without a major screw up the first time are slim to none. I am just telling you this for your own good. There are just to many things you have to know, and tools you should have. There may be people in a local Triumph club who would help, but make sure they have done this before, with success. Good Luck.

Popeye
01-10-2008, 06:43 PM
The odds that anyone can do this without a major screw up the first time are slim to none

Youch!! Have ye no faith?

Norton47
01-10-2008, 11:12 PM
I would recommend that you have the shop install the piston, rings and the crank and cam, at least.
I bet it would not be that much and they do this stuff all the time and most of us do it once in awhile. There is still plenty to put together.
You will need an assembly lube. One you can use is a CRC product called Moly-Graph, which is a extreme pressure multi purpose grease. A light coat on all surfaces that are going to rub until the oil gets there. No oils are then required and they may drain away before you need them, a assembly lube won't.
By the way here are the photo's for the clutch pin I promised and a shot of the engine on the stand
https://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd50/Norton47/Progress%203/

2wrench
01-12-2008, 06:23 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Just a reminder (in case you missed it before); if you are going to have the modification to add another thrust washer, now is the time to do it.

Just where is the detail available for that modification? I'll need it for my block next month. [/QUOTE]

Paul, tomshobby (Tom) posted the following in another
request regarding quality thrust washers, so I thought I'd
reiterate it here. We can never be too careful.

https://www.britishcarweek.org/tr6.html

Tinster
01-12-2008, 08:08 AM
Stupid kid on the block question again.

How many thrust washers are in my car?
How many should I order?
I have a 1968 TR250 block.

Given there are no Triumph mechanics on island,
I will be replacing the TWs myself. Are special
tools required?

d

Bugeye58
01-12-2008, 08:20 AM
Dale, I thought you recently measured the crank float, and it was well within specs. Why are you changing the thrust washers?
Jeff

Tinster
01-12-2008, 09:27 AM
Jeff,

Frank and I measured the end float by eye and by feel.
No forward movement "appeared" to the naked eye.

Given that everything else on the car was so totally
buggered up by the junkyard mechanic, what are the odds
DPO Pedro flew in someone from the States to change out
thrust washers?

I think I've got Pedro-ized engine just waiting to blow up.

A new engine I cannot afford.
Thrst washers, I am able to pay for.

d

Bugeye58
01-12-2008, 09:54 AM
Ah! I thought you had used a feeler gauge to check the float.
Jeff

Tinkerman
01-12-2008, 11:20 AM
Tinster, when I was reassembling my engine I measured the end float with a DTI guage mounted on a magnetic stand and literally had to move the crank by whacking it on the end with a dead blow hammer. Of course at this point the engine was dissasembled and mounted on the engine stand. tough to feel or visually see a 10 thousands shift in the crank, thus the use of the guage.
If you can use it I wont need it for awhile, so I wouldn't mind sending it to you, just send it back when you are through with it.

Regards, Tinkerman

TR3driver
01-12-2008, 02:26 PM
Or you can buy a new dial indicator and magnetic mount, for not a whole lot more than shipping costs back to Tinkerman /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif
(under $20 @ Enco)

But my opinion is that, if you couldn't see the movement, then the end float HAS to be just fine. You've already run the engine too far for it to be too tight; and if it was significantly too loose, you'd be able to see the movement easily.

IOW, It ain't broke, so don't fix it !

To answer your original question, your engine would have had two pieces of thrust washer originally (each piece is a half circle). But they come two pieces to a package, so you would normally only need to buy one package. But, you won't know until you get the pan off whether to buy standard or .005" oversize; so some people just buy one package of each size.

Also, there is a common modification to add a third washer. No way to know until it's apart if your engine has that modification.

TRTEL
01-13-2008, 11:47 AM
If you do buy new bolts, just be mildly cautious when threading into blind or semi-blind locations. A couple extra mm's of thread on a new bolt can bottom out in a rathole that's not deep enough. Leaving you with a tight bolt that's not doing it's job.

Brosky
01-13-2008, 05:18 PM
Sorry, I nearly forgot my question on this thread.

I thought that I read somewhere that there was a machined approach to modifying the rear of the block and bearing cap for these? Was it a Kastner mod?

Not that this is a bad approach, but while I have it at the machine shop is the time for that work to be done.

And Dale, I agree with Randall. Leave it alone if you can't see any movement.

TR3driver
01-13-2008, 11:35 PM
I thought that I read somewhere that there was a machined approach to modifying the rear of the block and bearing cap for these? Was it a Kastner mod?I do not know if the mod originated with Kas; but he does recommend it.

Brosky
01-14-2008, 09:43 AM
Randall,

Do you know what the mod that he recommended is/was? That is what I need to find out.

Thanks,

TR3driver
01-14-2008, 04:01 PM
Do you know what the mod that he recommended is/was?Kas is remarkably terse these days, so this is the best write-up I know of :
https://www.tr6web.com/Documents/tr6/mjbtwasherfix.html

In a nutshell, the bearing cap has a groove machined in one side, just the right shape and depth to accept another thrust washer half. This is done only on the rear side of the cap (where the thrust from the clutch is taken up). Then a small hole is drilled through the cap and washer half, and a pin inserted to locate the washer.

If done properly, this doubles the thrust surface area thus halving the pressure. With less pressure, the oil film never gets squeezed out and the bearings last nearly forever (like they did on the TR2-4 engine, which had full circle thrusts from the factory).

Probably the easiest way to deal with it is to ship the cap (I don't think he needs the rest of the block, but ask to be sure) to someone like Greg Solow:
The Engine Room
125 Front Street
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
(831) 429-1800

Don't have one handy to check, but I would guess this is also covered (probably with a diagram) in Triumph Preparation Handbook.
https://www.kaskastner.com/buybooks.html

Brosky
01-14-2008, 09:27 PM
I missed that. Thanks 2 & Tom.