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NutmegCT
12-30-2007, 07:59 AM
I've read several recent threads where high rpm and/or redlining for several minutes is mentioned.

Wondered if anyone (beside me) is reluctant to drive an older (say 1960) vintage unrebuilt engine around redline.

I realize my TR was "built to drive" back in 1959, and that today's cars tend to be driven at interstate speeds on lower rpm due to five or six speed transmissions.

First thought would be to drive the heck out of it, despite rpm.

But on second thought, now that I've accumulated some years myself, the ol' bones and joints aren't as strong and limber as they used to be. I haven't been overhauled, and neither has my 130K mile engine. Good oil and cylinder pressures and no problems I can detect. Runs great (the engine, anyway).

Your thoughts?

Tom

PeterK
12-30-2007, 09:33 AM
When I bought my 58, the PO said it likes to be driven hard and at high rpms. So I do. And it does.

NutmegCT
12-30-2007, 09:59 AM
Thanks Peter. Was your '58 engine ever overhauled/rebuilt?

Tom

PeterK
12-30-2007, 10:32 AM
Probably has somewhere during it's life.

It runs really strong but this winter, I'm going to pull the head and freshen it up. I'll do a valve job, new triple springs (I have a set of TT springs), check and replace exhaust seats, guides, etc. Just the top end or maybe not, depends on my time.

vagt6
12-30-2007, 10:43 AM
My rule of thumb on driving antique cars is simple: no high performance driving until the car has been thoroughly inspected. To do otherwise literally invites trouble!

Engine, electrics (especially if it's an LBC!), brakes, suspension all should be carefully inspected by someone who knows what they're doing (i.e., a professional mechanic or a highly experienced restorer).

For example, I restored and drove a GT6 for weeks with a cracked frame! Discovered it when tweaking the suspension one day. I was very, very lucky the car didn't break in two! Defects like a busted suspension, bad brakes or a shorted electrical circuit could easily lead to tragedy.

Even if the car has been professionally restored, the car should still be carefully gone over.

Better safe than sorry . . . /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/driving.gif

NickMorgan
12-30-2007, 10:43 AM
Tom,
I rebuilt the engine on my TR3 20,000 miles ago. I drive the car reasonably "spiritedly", but reserve the red line for occasional overtaking or when I am autotesting or rallying.
The engine wasn't balanced, I just put in bigger pistons and liners and a gas-flowed head. I didn't change the cam, because I enjoy the torque of the engine and don't want to have to rev it hard.
The engine is proving to be durable with its current driving and maintenance standards. I would think that too much long-term red-line driving would harm a TR engine, and if yours has 130k on it, I would respect the old lady!
Just my view.
Nick

Andrew Mace
12-30-2007, 09:10 PM
Don't get me wrong. I've enjoyed many a Triumph sports (as well as "family") car, and over the years I've road-rallyed and autocrossed most of them as well. What's always puzzled me, though, is why some folks feel that the redline constitutes an invitation to exceed same.

Thing is, most Triumph engines, with their origins in rather nonsporting applications, develop maximum horsepower and/or torque at levels well below the engine's redline. And unless you actually are on a road course or in an autocross, why even pretend to always aim for the very maximum performance? Most times, it looks silly to almost everyone else, wears out the car much faster, and as often as not finds you chatting with the badge-wearing driver of a well-optioned Crown Victoria. And you'll still get your doors blown off by that kid in the lowered, spoilered Hyundai.... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

AweMan
12-30-2007, 09:43 PM
IF we are talking about redlining a tr-3 engine here, Whats the point?
After all this engine was modled after a TRACTOR engine wasn`t it?
Just my opinion but going really really fast in a TR-3 is kinda crazy if you ask me. Tip one upside down and I think you`re gonna be really hard pressed to survive without some serious roll bar protection!
A TR-3 engine has some pretty long con rods making it a relativedly slow reving engine, not to mention a poorly designed valve train supseptabe to breaking valve springs and or loosing the valve keepers with the potential of dropping a valve in a cylinder at high revs {not a pretty sight}.
Ask any big rig trucker how they manage to get well over a million miles out of thier engines, I assure you it isn`t redlining it at every oppertunity.
I say drive it easy, let the spectators have a good look and enjoy! Besides, your engine will love you and pay you back many times over.

Andrew Mace
12-30-2007, 11:10 PM
IF we are talking about redlining a tr-3 engine here, Whats the point?
After all this engine was modled after a TRACTOR engine wasn`t it?...Technically, not quite. The TR engine was developed from the wetliner Standard Vanguard engine, said Vanguard intended to be a "world" car post-WWII and strong, powerful and durable enough to run well and long just about anywhere...and to be easily serviceable when/if needed (hence the wet liners). But understandably it wasn't difficult to develop a true tractor engine from a gutsy, long-stroke saloon car engine. On the other hand, it took a fair amount of re-engineering and srengthening to go from a family car's 68 hp to 90 (later over 100) hp in the TRs!

That aside, I agree with you (as should be obvious from the rest of my previous post)!

DougF
12-31-2007, 10:45 AM
No stock engine was designed to be run at redline for extended periods of time in my opinion.
I have to agree with the others that it can be done when needed, but there is no reason to do it frequently.
TR3 engines have always had the reputation of being bullet proof. They are sturdy for the era when engines didn't regularly make it to 100,000 miles.

TR3driver
12-31-2007, 12:37 PM
Ask any big rig trucker how they manage to get well over a million miles out of thier engines, I assure you it isn`t redlining it at every oppertunity.I disagree. My Dad drove a big rig for several years (finally changed professions for something that made more money for less work); and he hit almost governed redline on every shift. Of course that was something like a whopping 2000 rpm /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Coming back from VTR 2001 (which was a bit over 1000 miles from my home) I fell in with a bunch of cars doing roughly 100 mph through the desert. Kinda fun, actually, but it also got me home (and out of the heat) quicker.

AweMan
12-31-2007, 06:54 PM
The key word here is GOVERNED redline, big rig engines are quite capable of reving well over 2,000 PRM. Trucking companys equip thier engines with govonors and tattletales, computers that record the RPM at every shift of the transmission as well as road speed, down time, engine idle time, and many other bits of information as well. The computer can tell the owners and or maintenance personel if there was a missed shift, how many stops were made during a trip, how long the truck was idle and so on. The govonor serves the purpose of preventing over reving thier engines. My point was to get maximum longevity out of thier engines the truck owners "Govern" thier engines to a specific "redline" in order to get the optimal longevity out of them. But it surly isn`t the maxinum RPM the engine is capable of doing. Not even close. In a sense you are correct, drivers do "redline" to the "governed" redline because it is the optimal powerband for any specific gear they happen to need to use at the time. Over reving any engine is not a good practice. I know racers do it but then thier engines are built to race and even at that the longevity of a race engine is relativedly short lived compared to the regular street engine thats well maintained and driven within reason.
Redline yours at every opertunity if you want, I choose not to do so. And don`t recomend other to either.

jussie
12-31-2007, 07:01 PM
what is the maximum rpm these cars can turn without floating the valves, in stock form? i have taken my motor over 6k in stock trim and havent heard any pinking or noticed anything bad

PeterK
12-31-2007, 08:38 PM
Redline is not overreving. It is the max recommended RPM.

Hitting the redline does not infer street racing, or imply dangerous driving, or mean you drive like a 16 year old that has just stolen a car.

On a spirited drive, I admit it - I will take the engine RPM up until just before the power falls off before shifting. As previously noted, the max HP produced by our engines is below redline anyway.

Driving like my dear departed Auntie can cause more damage to your engine over time than an occasional high rpm drive.

Just my 2cents on this subject.

jussie
12-31-2007, 09:06 PM
every shift for me is a full throttle redlined shift. i drive it like i stole it. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

Twosheds
12-31-2007, 09:24 PM
Thing is, most Triumph engines, with their origins in rather nonsporting applications, develop maximum horsepower and/or torque at levels well below the engine's redline.

Yes, but, when one is upshifting, the torque at the rear wheels in a lower gear is higher at redline than at the max torque RPM in the next higher gear. When you upshift, your RPM drops as you chose the next higher gear, so it's better to go to redline, and, when the RPM drops, you are at the max torque RPM.

But all this is irrelevant 'cuz it's just so cool to wind the TR3 up when upshifting once in a while! Been doin' it for 27 years and it's still fun.

Aweman! If you're going to drive like a Little Old Lady, why not get a Brand X and sell that TR to someone who can drive it! Yeesh! Why are we into these cars?

TR3driver
12-31-2007, 09:45 PM
On a spirited drive, I admit it - I will take the engine RPM up until just before the power falls off before shifting.Which means you aren't getting maximum acceleration. For best acceleration, you want to wind a bit past max power, so it doesn't drop back as far when you shift. Maximize the area under the part of the power curve you use.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] As previously noted, the max HP produced by our engines is below redline anyway. [/QUOTE]Early TR3 spec had max power rated at 5000 rpm. Later it dropped to 4750 rpm, which is still dang close.

Of course, any modifications made are likely to change that, including the popular 87mm liners.

TR3driver
12-31-2007, 10:08 PM
But it surly isn`t the maxinum RPM the engine is capable of doing.Neither is the published redline !
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Redline yours at every opertunity if you want, I choose not to do so. And don`t recomend other to either. [/QUOTE]Thanks, I will continue to drive as I see fit, which includes factory redline or even a bit beyond on occasion.

I've not kept track of how many miles I've put on various TR3As over the years, but it's got to be at least 300,000 or so. And in all that time, I've never seen any damage that I attributed to overrevving.

Dad used to drive his with the tach just covering the redline all the time (it had a 4.10 rear axle but no OD) and we originally blamed that when it swallowed a valve. But after examination, I found the valve stem badly eroded where it finally broke (and the car had always had severe overheating problems); so I think the real cause was overly lean mixture at cruise (caused by worn jets in the SU carbs). The exhaust manifold used to glow bright red (and turn funny colors when it cooled).

AweMan
12-31-2007, 11:33 PM
[quote=Andrew Mace]
Aweman! If you're going to drive like a Little Old Lady, why not get a Brand X and sell that TR to someone who can drive it! Yeesh! Why are we into these cars?


Drive like a little ole lady you say?
Well ...... I`m here to tell ya I have never gotten a D.U.I. but never the less I have lost my DL due to excessive points FOUR TIMES. {Mainly speeding} {Oh and a few acceleration exhibitions too!}
Little ole lady from Passedena maybe /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/lol.gif

NutmegCT
01-01-2008, 07:41 AM
go granny go granny go granny go!

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!

01-01-2008, 10:23 AM
Last summer, at the VTR regional in Irving, TX, I witnessed a fellow (from Colorado, forgotten his name, nice guy) that autocrossed his hybrid Spit/Honda (strictly race) and I heard him spin it a time or two past the redline (10,000+). Ouch. Very disconcerting noise ensued. He did no damage, knew his car well, made my stomach sink though.

NickMorgan
01-01-2008, 12:08 PM
Stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest, Tom!!
Happy Hogmanay
Nick

MadMarx
01-01-2008, 05:07 PM
When my car was a normal road car I always was at the red line at highway cruise and the OD just pushed up the speed but didn't lower the revs. And with the Nordschleife not too far the engine has a lot to do when driven hard there.

Since my car is a racer....I am beyond redlining it.

cheers
chris

TR3driver
01-01-2008, 06:59 PM
Last summer, at the VTR regional in Irving, TX, I witnessed a fellow (from Colorado, forgotten his name, nice guy) that autocrossed his hybrid Spit/Honda (strictly race)Sure that wasn't Joe Curry, from Az ? He put a Honda S2000 motor in his Spit ... but I didn't go to Irving to see if he ran there.

swift6
01-01-2008, 08:12 PM
Certainly sounds like Joe's car.

poolboy
01-01-2008, 09:49 PM
If you always drive like that on the street, jussie, a lot of things can happen and not all of them will be good.

TR3driver
01-01-2008, 11:49 PM
If you always drive like that on the street, jussie, a lot of things can happen and not all of them will be good.
OTOH, all the worst things happened to me when sitting perfectly still ... including having the car totaled.

Compared to that, getting a ticket for doing 95 on the freeway (during rush hour no less) was relatively painless !