PDA

View Full Version : Defective Part Notice:



Tinster
06-27-2007, 05:40 AM
Moss Motors informed me they have taken all their TR fuel pumps off the shelves due to a product failure. Moss
has no replacement pumps available but will account credit
all pumps returned to them.

The defective pump puts out a pressure of 8 psi and is
reported to produce carb flooding as a result.

The fuel pump I installed in Crypty is the defective moss pump.

If you have one of these pumps or have installed one, send itback to Moss for a store credit. Better than nothing.

The fuel pump shown in TRF catalogue looks identical to the defective Moss unit. Perhaps the same supplier?

So the Crypt Car now has no functional fuel pump.

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/badpump.jpg

DrEntropy
06-27-2007, 05:50 AM
Umm, Dale: is the spacing on the diaphragm screws the same on both?

...I would never advocate a swindle, but mebbe you could rebuild the old pump with just swapping the membrane... then bury the "new" pump inna sand. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/devilgrin.gif

Tinster
06-27-2007, 06:04 AM
DR- DPO had some "other" pump jerry rigged into
the car. I tossed that pump the same day it failed.

I did ask Moss if there was any method to reduce the
8 psi but they knew of none.

Yet another statement about the sad shape of replacement
parts we are forced to purchase for these cars.

I seem to have a gordon's knot here.

d.

DrEntropy
06-27-2007, 06:11 AM
You've tried NAPA?

70herald
06-27-2007, 06:31 AM
OK, this is progress of sorts.
Take a look at this: Facet electric fuel pump. It puts out the correct pressure and sufficient flow for the TR6.

I think you can get them at NAPA or other local dealers also. One advantage of the electric pump is that you can hook in a switch which makes it a tiny bit more difficult to steal.


https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=83

You can cover the hole in the engine block with a plate, the cover for a small bock chevy fits I think??

DrEntropy
06-27-2007, 06:42 AM
Y took th' words right outta. And I think NAPA also sells that blanking plate.

dklawson
06-27-2007, 07:47 AM
My thought was that if the Moss pump is OK apart from delivering 8psi, install a pressure regulator.

I have learned from several sources that the best, low budget regulator is one from Holley and that you should avoid the pancake one from Purolator.

Avoid this:
https://www.jcwhitney.com/wcsstore/jcwhitney/jcw/category/images/600002063.jpg

Get this:
https://www.mrcmfg.com/respeed/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=164&osCsid

foxtrapper
06-27-2007, 08:07 AM
Aftermarket fuel pumps having too high a pressure is a decades old problem. Be it Moss, TRF, Vicky Brit, etc.
This isn't a new problem.

70herald
06-27-2007, 08:10 AM
2 reasons not to bother with the pressure regulator:
1. the regulator costs almost as much as the fuel pump so why bother????
2. that MOS fuel pump putting out high pressure is going to add extra wear on the camshaft/timing chain to develop that extra pressure.

Brosky
06-27-2007, 08:59 AM
The plot thickens. If it can happen to anyone, it will be Dale.

TR3driver
06-27-2007, 09:50 AM
2 reasons not to bother with the pressure regulator:
1. the regulator costs almost as much as the fuel pump so why bother????
2. that MOS fuel pump putting out high pressure is going to add extra wear on the camshaft/timing chain to develop that extra pressure.
Another reason :
3) Adds another point of failure. Some regulators have been known to fail and spray fuel all over the place. There was even a recall a few years back of units made by Purolator and sold under several different names (including NAPA), but I can't find the link at the moment.

If you want to go electric, I heartily recommend the little Facet. No diaphragm to leak and I've never seen one fail. But note that they do come in different pressure ratings, and you want the lowest one (model 40105). Best source I know of is Aircraft Spruce https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php

TR3driver
06-27-2007, 09:57 AM
I did ask Moss if there was any method to reduce the 8 psi but they knew of none.

The pressure is set by a big spring. It would take some experimentation, but you should be able to reduce the pressure by trimming the spring down.
Unfortunately, you can't just cut the spring in half to cut the pressure in half.

Silverghost
06-27-2007, 10:28 AM
I admire you for sticking in there with your "beloved"(?) automobile which continues to fail to procede! Have you considered a bicycle?! Ok, just kidding..... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger... Keep up the efforts....

Tinster
06-27-2007, 11:26 AM
Now Paul!

This seems to be a wide spread failure and only indirectly
can I blame it on DPO. Many other folks got burned on
this fuel pump failure.

Ture, I purchased the pump as a spare for when DPO's
pump failed on me. And it DID fail on me as predicted.The
defective spare got me back home and saved me the cost of
a very pricey $$ flat bed trailer tow.

Now the $750 I spent to correct the flooding rear carb
with custom crafted fuel lines, multi-filters, etc and
taking out the fuel tank and refurbishing it?

That would all seem to be a total waste of my time and cash.

d

dklawson
06-27-2007, 11:28 AM
Randall, those are excellent prices on the Facet pump. Thanks for the link.

BTW, the Purolator regulator is the one shown in the first of the two links in my previous post. That's the one I have been told to avoid. I have used them and I found their "scale" or selector dial to be very inaccurate.

TR3driver
06-27-2007, 11:56 AM
That would all seem to be a total waste of my time and cash.
Not a total waste ... hopefully you learned some important lessons about owning and wrenching on old cars /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

One of them being : Not all "improvements" are better /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wall.gif

tomshobby
06-27-2007, 12:00 PM
[quote=70herald]
If you want to go electric, I heartily recommend the little Facet. No diaphragm to leak and I've never seen one fail. But note that they do come in different pressure ratings, and you want the lowest one (model 40105). Best source I know of is Aircraft Spruce https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php

I agree, I have had several transactions with this company and have been very satisfied with them.

Also, I just placed an order for this pump and they are being back ordered with an expected delivery of the third week of July. The price is about 1/3 that of another supplier.

Cyberpyr8
06-27-2007, 12:27 PM
Have you ever considered moving to the states where AAA can tow you? I know it's a lot to move your family just so that you can get car parts and a cheap tow, but it is a Triumph!

Seriously, I know you have had a string of problems with the car. If anything that should be reassuring that the car is ok and it was just a defective part.

PeterK
06-27-2007, 01:12 PM
These Facet-style pumps are very popular with the dune buggy crowd. Check your local buggy shop Dale. Also marketed under the EMPI name.

Like this https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FUEL-PUMP...sspagenameZWDVW (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FUEL-PUMP-ELECTRIC-VW-WEBER-EMPI-SANDRAIL-IMPORT-909_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33555QQihZ013QQitem Z230146980442QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

or this https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-WEBER-...sspagenameZWDVW (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-WEBER-DELLORTO-EMPI-ELECTRIC-FUEL-PUMP-1-4-PSI_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6755QQihZ005QQitemZ 150134953477QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

Tinster
06-27-2007, 02:08 PM
Randall:

I plead total ignorance of elec. fuel pumps.

Do they go inside the fuel tank?

or are they in-line pumps with gravity flow from
the fuel tank into the "in" port of the pump and then
the pump pushed to fuel along?

From the site you posted- which specific model number
would be purchased for Crypty.

Would this be a backup- parallel system to the manual
pump and hoses?

TR3driver
06-27-2007, 04:55 PM
The Facet is an external pump, it doesn't go inside the tank. Although the optimum location is down low and near the tank, it will lift fuel 18" or more, so it will work fine mounted in a convenient location in the engine compartment.

Model 40105 is suitable for all Triumphs with carburetors, whether ZS, SU or Weber. The exception would be heavily modified motors capable of over 150 bhp output (which need more fuel flow).

I would not suggest installing in parallel with your mechanical pump. If you do want to use the Facet as a backup, leave it disconnected until you need it, then pull the lines off the mechanical pump and put them on the Facet. Tie-wrap it down, run a temporary hot wire to the coil or battery, and continue home. I carry one in the spare tire well, and this technique has gotten me home.

If you want a permanent installation, just use the Facet in place of your mechanical pump. As noted, blanking plates (to close off the hole in the side of the engine block) are available. If you can't find the GM one locally, there is a fellow here in So CA making them specifically for Triumphs. And shipping to Puerto Rico should be only about $5.

hondo402000
06-27-2007, 05:15 PM
I purchased a Carter electric fuel pump from redline, I think it was around 100.00 but its low pressure for 30 DCOE webers, it even mounded in the trunk where the mounting place for the PI models Electric pump goes. I would suggest a pressure switch added with a T fitting at the block where the oil pressure gauge pressure swith is so the pump only runs when there is oil pressure,

ALLAN
06-27-2007, 06:33 PM
Dale, did you install Grose Jet valves, alot better than the stock needle valve, they should hold the extra pressure.( maybe your float adjustment is off) In my opinion the original AC pump is still the way to go, TRF sells replica AC pumps for $89, add that to the Grose jets and your problem will be fixed.

DNK
06-27-2007, 07:11 PM
I would suggest a pressure switch added with a T fitting at the block where the oil pressure gauge pressure swith is so the pump only runs when there is oil pressure,

Got one if any one wants it.

dklawson
06-27-2007, 07:17 PM
Grose Jets are a whole 'nother issue. I had them on both the Mini and the Triumph. During the past year I've removed them from both. They stuck on the TR and leaked on the Mini. I'm back to running Viton tipped float valves on both.

Hondo, which Carter pump did you buy? I've been considering replacing my Facet "brick" pump with the Carter P60504 inline pump (about $55 from Summit. ) I had one on the GT6 when I first put it back on the road. (This REALLY ties into this thread. ) There was so much rust scale in the GT6 fuel tank that it plugged the filter I had inline before the Carter pump and it ran dry. The pump uses the fuel for cooling. Without fuel flow the Carter overheated and died before my float bowls went dry. Nonetheless, I've always liked the sound of the inline Carter.

ALLAN
06-27-2007, 08:16 PM
[quote=dklawson]Grose Jets are a whole 'nother issue. I had them on both the Mini and the Triumph. During the past year I've removed them from both. They stuck on the TR and leaked on the Mini. I'm back to running Viton tipped float valves on both.



I think for most the opposite has been true, it made a big difference for me when I switched to Grose jets and I never had the problems you mentioned. They solved about 1/2 of the problems I had with the ZSs but not the other half so now I run Webers with out any problems----ahh-but there is another debate!!?

RonMacPherson
06-27-2007, 10:14 PM
I had Grose (gross, in my opinion) on my 2nd TR6. They were intermittent failing items. Intermittent failures are SO much fun to try to pinpoint and isolate. Finally took them off (after about 8 months of haranguing fuel system) and went back to Needle and seat. Did some parts shopping at my local parts store(with carb parts book and got some Viton equipped needles. Now the vitons run in all my vehicle(except the fi Honda). I believe that you can even specify and acquire viton needle and seats from the big 3.

So I recommend staying with needle and seat and avoiding Grose jet hassles.

tomshobby
06-27-2007, 10:29 PM
Last year I bought a pump made in Italy by BCD Torino. #1697/14C I bought it from World Wide Auto in Madison, WI just a couple miles from my door step.

I also did not remember where I got it from and ordered the Facet pump before I looked. That will still work out. If this pump is not good I will soon have an alternative. I did not check the pressure before taking my engine out but at it here on my desk this is one well made pump.

Basil
06-27-2007, 10:30 PM
Tinster, you have a PM

TR3driver
06-27-2007, 11:20 PM
So I recommend staying with needle and seat and avoiding Grose jet hassles. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif I've fixed several cars (for other people) now by pitching the Grose Jets. As noted, they don't always cause problems; but sometimes they do. Because of the larger cross-sectional area of the valve, they are more sensitive to high fuel pressure and/or heavy floats than the stock float valves.

Granted, they should last longer than the stock valves ... but the stock valves last plenty long enough, IMO. And the Viton-tipped replacements (which sometimes come in rebuild kits) last even longer.

IMO, Grose Jets are mostly marketing hype, a solution without a problem.