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Tinster
06-26-2007, 08:48 AM
Here's a photo of Crypty's non-functional carbs.
Professionally rebuilt by Jeff Palya approximately
225 miles ago. The rear carb gushes gasoline like
an open faucet.

1. Gas tank removed and cleaned spotless inside.
2. 100% new fuel lines and fittings.
3. Five in-line fuel filters
4.New Moss Motors fuel pump

At everyone's request-3 hours this morning:
Carbs removed from car and observed to be spotless
with no crud, sand, rust, silt or spiders. Rear carb
continues to gush gasoline. Needle valves clear and
clicks easily when rotated 180*. Floats rotate smoothly.
No crud of any kind observed anywhere.


I think it would be a total waste of money to have Jeff
rebuilt the carbs again. What are these carbs worth to
sell on E-Bay in an honest as-is condition? Maybe a carb
expert could fix them. I could use the cash toward
purchasing new carbs.

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/finalconfig.jpg

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/oldcarbs.jpg

06-26-2007, 08:59 AM
Send them back to Palya.

No way should he charge you full freight to fix whatever is wrong - in fact with that sort of mileage on them he'd be smart to do it for a nominal cost...

TR4
06-26-2007, 09:11 AM
Dale,
Do you know what the fuel line pressure is running? I'm guessing it should be around 1 to 2 PSI or 3PSI at the highest. New carbs won't correct a high pressure problem. You could also test the carbs by switching the floats and needle valves to see if the gushing problem moves to the front carb. Could you switch the infeed fuel line by adding another section of hose? Just some low cost checks for consideration.

Phil

Scott_Hower
06-26-2007, 09:31 AM
Some things to consider...

1. Where is the flood originating? Are the float bowls leaking? Did you use a light smear of grease on the gaskets? Fuel enters at the side and is held in the float bowl; there are not many places it can leak. Are the floats set correctly and floating? Nothing stuck/lodged in the jet?

2. Are your hoses sized corectly and clamped tightly? Often the wrong size hose is used. Looks like you have Aeroquip/Earls hose and AN fittings, are these possibly the source of your leak? Have you tried using just plain old fuel hose?

3. What type of pump are you using? As mentioned, you should not have more than a couple lbs of fuel pressure.

4. I wouldn't throw the towel in on these just yet. Fiddle some more. After that send them back for testing

TR3driver
06-26-2007, 09:38 AM
Rather than giving up now, why not at least find out where it's leaking ? Take the bowl off, turn the carb upside down, and use a length of line to blow into the fuel inlet. The weight of the float should be enough to shut off as hard as you can blow. So where it leaks is the problem. If it doesn't leak during this test, then either the fuel pressure is too high, the level is set too high, or the float itself is too heavy (defective).

Brosky
06-26-2007, 09:46 AM
Good test method Randall.

I think that fuel pressure should be checked at this point. Dale may have a fluke pump putting 5-8PSI, which would probably be way too high.

Just a thought, but does anyone think that all of those filters could be creating higher pressure at the carbs? Sort of like a squeeze down on the open garden hose trick?

Volume is volume, but pressure may have been affected, so perhaps it would be good to check it after the pump and then after the filters?

As far as the floats, if Dale takes them off, he could probably measure them on a postal scale to see if that front one is too heavy. It may be porous and have a little gas in it. Rare, but it does happen.

Crisis
06-26-2007, 09:52 AM
I had this problem last year with rebuilt carbs. Wife banished car to backyard shed because of the smell. Couldn't figure out what was wrong, but they were actually dripping out the vent hole you pointed out and was evident in the aircleaner side of the throat.
Took the carbs off this spring-still didn't see a problem. Then I noticed the black spot on the gaskets that sandwich the spacer between the carbs and intake. Noticed that the gaskets are supposed to have a cutout facing to the front side of the carbs, mine didn't (right at the black spot). Replaced with the correct gasket, re-attached, and are now dry as a bone. I think this opening allows air to bypass the throttle plate in conditions where vacuum is very high on intake side of carbs. If blocked, maybe the vacuum pulled fuel from the float bowl? Don't know,but they were wet, now dry.

BOXoROCKS
06-26-2007, 10:02 AM
tinster, think toilet tank when working on the floats. Bend the tab up a bit or put another shim washer under the needle valve. assemble,hook up fuel line, plug other line, hold in hand,pull coil wire and have someone crank the engine.Trial and error from here. If it still leaks after several trys,take the bottom off again,hold float up by hand,still leaks...lets float hang down,then hold needle valve shut with your finger.If it leaks then,time for a new valve,...or its leaking past the threads. I do all this myself while smoking,my theory is ....I'm gonna win no matter what...

tomshobby
06-26-2007, 10:15 AM
Dale, force, distance of force from pivot, weight on lever, length of lever.

Tinster
06-26-2007, 11:16 AM
Been putzing with the carbs off and on the car
all morning. Missed my 8:00 AM meeting. Gonna
scoot over to see the client shortly.

Carbs presently back on the car but not tightened down.

I took the carbs off again and took the bottom pieces
apart again. This time, slowly and I measured the float
heights. Dead on at .625".

The rear carb float seemed to not rotate as smoothly
as the front float. I did a minor adjustment of the float
hinge- smoother now. Same as front float.

I blew air thru the needle valves and their threaded
opening.

I'll tighten things up and crank it without the coil this
evening. I checked on the price of 2 new carbs- Yikes!!
$1,600. plus delivery here and 20% excise tax and 15 %
new local tax.

Well, the carbs worked at one time. So they must be fixable.
How much damage could I make in 250 miles or so? Mostly in
short "broke down again" trips of 20 miles or less.

later,

d

Tinster
06-26-2007, 11:18 AM
Question: What is the function of the needle valve?
And what role does the float play?

Just curious to know.

d

Mickey Richaud
06-26-2007, 11:35 AM
As I understand them, the needle valve "meters" the amount of fuel introduced into the mix as the tapered end of the needle moves in its bore, and the float regulates the flow of fuel into the carb bowls. Float up closes the flow - bowl is "full".

70herald
06-26-2007, 11:42 AM
Ok, your making progress now. These carbs were working for 250 miles and not leaking, then the pump broke, crud got everywhere and the carbs started flooding so lets think this out together and figure out what changed.

How about the valves, when you took it apart last time how did you clean them? lets find out if they work properly now. with the carb bottom off, blow into the gas inlet, and with a finger gently push on valve to turn off the gas (or currently air ) flow off. It should be very easy to turn the gas off. `

Now, lift up the float and see if that still turns off the gas flow. If the little tab which pushes up on the gas valve is bent, that also would make it impossible to turn off the gas flow. Check the height at which the floats turn off the gas flow. (while blowing into the gas pipe.)

One other thing, on my junk carb, I see that the gas valve is screwed all the way in, and has an Al washer under it. How is yours installed, is it all the way in, or is it adjustable? maybe it is in to far (missing a washer?) so that the float cant turn it off? did you take the valves out when you cleaned the carbs?


If this doesn't solve it, we will continue.....

Yisrael

TR4
06-26-2007, 11:53 AM
If you have the carbs off and the bowl removed, with the carbs upside down, the float should measure .75 inches above the carb body at the highest point of the float. That is the measurement for my TR4 so hopefully someone can tell us if that is the same for a TR6 carb. If it measures a lot less than .75 the float may not be shutting off the fuel flow and the tab on the float would need to be bent to achieve the proper float level. You need a manual such as this one on ebay https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Haynes-We...136895732QQrdZ1 (https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Haynes-Weber-SU-Zeinth-Stromberg-carb-manual_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6762QQihZ014QQit emZ330136895732QQrdZ1) The workshop manual might even provide the proper float setting.

TR3driver
06-26-2007, 12:04 PM
Question: What is the function of the needle valve? And what role does the float play?

It gets confusing, because there are two different things that many people (myself included) call "needles".

The "needle valve" is operated by the float, to maintain a constant level of fuel in the float bowl. When the fuel level rises, it lifts the float, which in turn closes the valve, stopping the flow of fuel into the bowl. This would appear to be where your problem is : for some reason the valve is not closing when the bowl is full (or perhaps there is a leak that allows fuel into the bowl even when the valve is closed). The bowl is vented to that port in the face of the carb where the fuel is gushing out.

However, that big brass needle in the center of the carb is the mixture needle, rather than the needle valve. It controls the ratio of fuel mixed with the air admitted to the engine, and is controlled by the air piston under the dome in the top.

TR3driver
06-26-2007, 12:17 PM
This time, slowly and I measured the float
heights. Dead on at .625".
Although I doubt that's the issue, the information I have is that the float height should be 16 to 17mm, which is .630" to .670".

I blew air thru the needle valves and their threaded opening.
But, did you check that lifting the float would shut off the flow of air ?

Well, the carbs worked at one time. So they must be fixable.
They are pretty much infinitely fixable, unless you've actually broken a casting or something. That's part of the reason new ones are so expensive, there is so little demand for them. I've got a pair of SU H6 carbs (similar tho not identical to the ZS) with over 300,000 miles on them.

roofman
06-26-2007, 01:45 PM
Could the diameter of the new 6 million dollar fuel lines have any thing to do with it?

Brosky
06-26-2007, 01:58 PM
That was my point in my question above about all of the filters. I would assume that the new lines are the same ID because they have to fit on the original inlet pipes on the carbs.

And again, I used the word "assume".

BryanC
06-26-2007, 02:14 PM
You need to measure the fuel pressure. A number of folks have suggested this. Have you measured it yet? What was it? If the pressure is too high, the carb cannot stop the flow, the carb will flood and fuel will run all over. I doubt that a rebuilt carb from a reliable source is the problem. There is some history of new pumps putting up way too much pressure.

Bryan

donbmw
06-26-2007, 02:25 PM
Does the float acutal float in some fuel in a bowl. Going back to when I worked on ATVs and motorcycles. Most float will open when the fuel level drops. But there is a pop off press that the float needle should open up. Some where around 6 to 10 PSI. If you blow through the fuel inlet with the float upside down it should not be that hard to make the needle valve open. I realy sounds like the float needle is sticking or the seat is nicked.

Don

Brosky
06-26-2007, 03:07 PM
Years ago, GM came out with what looked like a Bakelite plastic float to eliminate the solder joints cracking on the two halves of the floats in their 4BBL carbs. This worked well after they eliminated the bad ones that were porous and took on fuel like a sponge.

My point and I do have one, is that if you have this apart again, check the float by submerging it in water to see if it will stay under, or float to the top. You may have to keep it under for a while, in the event that there is a hairline crack in the solder or if the float metal is taking in fuel and allowing it to be too heavy.

You can generally hear the fuel sloshing around in the float when it takes it on, if there is a hole somewhere.

Only a few grams will cause it to be too heavy and create the flooding.

Not a definite answer, but worth checking in advance, before reassembly.

toysrrus
06-26-2007, 03:07 PM
:(Hi Tinster;

Man; I really hate to come across another thread about your TR!!

I just simply feel bad for You: I would have Sold that thing on ebay a long time ago & Let someone else figure out what`s "Haunting" this Car!!!

If you persist; Why not take your carbs off the car & send them to "Joe Curto": He`s the "Best of the Best" when it comes to SU`s and Strombergs: Explain your situation and perhaps he may return your carbs and tell you there is absolutely nothing wrong with them! All it can cost is the shipping: https://www.joecurto.com / Ph: 1-718-762-7878 / Fax: 1-718-762-6287: Stop screwing around and contact him:

Best Wishes;

Russ /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/nopity.gif

Brosky
06-26-2007, 03:15 PM
Russ,

I don't want to downplay your idea, but Dale is stuck in Puerto Rico and the things that we do quickly and get quickly, just don't happen for him. Delivery is in the range of weeks, not days, as we enjoy here stateside.

Joe Curto is good, but he will be checking the same exact things that we are all talking about here. Dale is capable of doing that and I believe that he will fix his own problem sooner, rather than later.

I'm sure that if he lived in New England or Penn, he would have the carbs at TRF or Curto or Palya in a heartbeat, but such is not the case.

Tinster
06-26-2007, 04:11 PM
I sent photos to Jeff Palya and he is pretty sure
it is a float issue. I've made adjustments to the float
hinge mechanism and hospital cleaned everything while the
carb's bottoms were off.

Carbs are back on the car but not tightened down. Night
school tonight and then tomorrow I'll hook up gas and
see what happens.

PS: ALL hoses I installed are OEM identical inside diameter.

thanks all, I am hopeful for an AM launch!

d /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif

TR3driver
06-26-2007, 04:57 PM
My point and I do have one, is that if you have this apart again, check the float by submerging it in water to see if it will stay under, or float to the top. You may have to keep it under for a while, in the event that there is a hairline crack in the solder or if the float metal is taking in fuel and allowing it to be too heavy.
Er, but we're talking about a TR6 here. They never had brass floats. Not sure what the British call it, but they are a closed-cell foam, very similar to the nitrophyll floats that GM et al used to use.

And even if they are fuel-logged, they will still float in water.

When I went through this on my Dodge motorhome, the @#$ floats would work fine when cold, but sink when they got hot (like from that old 440 pulling a big hill). Went through two rounds of new floats, both of which failed within a year, before I finally managed to source some brass ones and never had a problem again.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any brass floats for ZS carbs.

TR3driver
06-26-2007, 05:15 PM
You need to measure the fuel pressure. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif
JIC you don't know, Tinster, most vacuum test gauges will also read fuel pressure. Although they are less common these days, you should still be able to find one at Advance Auto or other local auto parts store, for not much money. Vacuum gauge photo (https://partimages2.genpt.com/partimages/24786.jpg)

BOXoROCKS
06-26-2007, 05:18 PM
I agree with Brosky, this aint bottle rockey science. Tinster can do it. I gave one suggestion,I will try another. Put another washer under the needle valve seat. Bend the tab up until it hurts. The idea here is to shut the flow off,really off. Now..work backwards until you start to get some flow,dont be paranoid about the exact degree of height,if you are off a bit on the weak side,chances are you will never know it,cause you probably never going to run the TR6 hard enough to ever drain the float bowl..... The wheels will fall off first.

If this doesn't work,then something else is leaking.

BOXoROCKS
06-26-2007, 05:26 PM
One more suggestion, then I am going to start drinking again. Get a plastic bottle like one of those squirt your self in the mouth kind.Rig up a fuel line to it that doesnt leak,cut the bottom off,fill with a couple of inches of gas,connect fuel line to carbs hold bottle upright upright,start car. If carbs arent leaking,then maybe you have to much fuel pump pressure.

OK now the big question,is property expensive down there?

philknight
06-26-2007, 07:40 PM
Dale,
Bently manual states that pump pressure should be
Minimum 1.5 psi
Maximum 2.5 psi
I had the same problem last year. The rear float was sticking and spewing fuel from the same place as yours. Fixed it once with a few taps of a dead blow hammer. reoccured a week later so I took the carbs apart. They were spotless inside, obviously recently professionally rebuilt. (DPO was not mechanically inclined) The floats were set incorrectly and the needle valves were installed without the gaskets. Installed new gaskets, reset floats and no more spewing fuel. Phil

4aKen
06-26-2007, 08:39 PM
I have 175 Stroms on the 4a, so things could be different.
I would re-read what CRISIS had to say above...I had this problem once a life time ago and CRISIS rings a bell.

Have you aligned the linkage between the two carbs..so that they are operating in sync.

Have you taken the diaphram, piston, and needle out and cleaned.

Have you re-seated the needle...the 6 guys can help...use a coin, watch the piston, when it moves, back it off 3 turns.

Again, the TR6 guys know the procedure.

Brosky
06-26-2007, 09:13 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Er, but we're talking about a TR6 here. They never had brass floats. Not sure what the British call it, but they are a closed-cell foam, very similar to the nitrophyll floats that GM et al used to use. [/QUOTE]

Randall,

My point exactly, but perhaps poorly explained on my part. That is why I suggested weighing the floats to see if one was heavier than the other. And it will only be off a small amount and cause a large problem.

The floats will still stay on top, but if one is absorbing moisture, it will be submerged a bit.

BTW, Dodge's weren't the only ones with that same problem. Many an Olds 98 with a Q-Jet would flood gas all over the engine when those foam floats became gas soaked. This was if you could get it started because they mainly would just shut the engine down with raw fuel.

4aKen
06-26-2007, 09:57 PM
On second thought...why not just ship them back to the rebuilder and have him test them. No rebuilder in his right mind would charge you (maybe shipping)to confirm the integrity of their workmanship. He would probly lose 5k from this forum alone. You could confirm the carbs and work backwards. Fuel problems on TRs are resolvable.

TR3driver
06-26-2007, 11:44 PM
My point exactly, but perhaps poorly explained on my part.
Oh, OK, Paul. Sorry bout that.

I guess it was the part about looking for a crack in the solder that threw me off /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

Tinster, if you are able to weigh the float accurately, let me know and I'll weigh one of mine too.

70herald
06-27-2007, 02:05 AM
Dale, since they were working, chances are whatever happened in the first cleaning probably caused the leak, now it is just a matter of figuring out what that might have been. The float not moving freely certainly won't help.

Now what we know:
1. Carbs worked
2. front carb still works
3. rear carb is leaking.

now since the front carb is not leaking, I highly doubt that the fuel pressure is to high since that would affect both carbs. Pressure will be equal throughout the system, excepting the drop in pressure across filters. Given the fact that you have 5 filters in the system even if you did have a pump that was putting out more than 2.5 psi the pressure at the carb is lower than that.

So that leaves us with some reason that the carb keeps on filling.

Hopefully, tweaking the hinge solved the problem. If not, I think the next step is to find out if the rear float is in fact "gas logged" I would put each float in a small amount of gas and see what how high up it floats. They should be identical, but if not, then bingo, we know were the problem is. If they are identical (ie one of them could have been replaced with a different revision in the past) you could also weigh them with an accurate scale, to make sure the rear on isn't heavier.
Finally, the valve itself, could have been damaged by crud / cleaning or whatever. I took a look at my spare last night, and while blowing into the gas line hard, the lightest pressure applied on the valve shut it off totally. As someone else pointed out, this mechanism is just like the file mechanism in a toilet bowl tank. if the valve / or float are not working properly the tank keeps on filling.

One other thing, you could swap either the valve or float from front to back and see if (when) the problem moves. They are identical.

What I KNOW that you don't need are new carbs / or rebuilds.
Yisrael

Tinster
06-27-2007, 05:50 AM
"Houston- We have a problem."

Moss Motors informs me their fuel pumps are defective
and put out 8 psi. causing carbs to flood. Moss has taken
the product off their shelves and has no replacement
available at this time. Return the pump for a store credit.

BLARGH- now I have NO FUEL PUMP for Crypty.

TRF seems to carry the same defective pump as Moss.

So the attemped launch of Crypty is canceled until a working
fuel pump can be obtained.

d

DrEntropy
06-27-2007, 06:00 AM
Have you checked with NAPA?

As an aside: A crack/leak in a float will NOT allow water in unless it's visibly HUGE. Immerse the float in MILK to check for a crack.

Really.

Gasoline and milk are similar enough in characteristics. Water will not propagate thru a crack where gas or milk WILL.

Just another Helpful Hint from yer ol' doc. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Brosky
06-27-2007, 09:06 AM
Tricky, Doc, tricky! I never knew that interesting fact.

Tomster
06-27-2007, 09:34 AM
If they leak, should you not see a small stream of bubbles in the milk rising from the floats ?

Brosky
06-27-2007, 09:44 AM
I think that you would if the floats were made of a two piece tank type. On the older GM versions that I mentioned earlier, the gas was slowly absorbed into the foam material and I'm not so sure if you would see any bubbles, as it might take a while.

DrEntropy
06-27-2007, 09:51 AM
There'll be bubbles, 'stream' or *intermittant* depending on the size of the crack/leak.

If you're quick at cookie dunkin' you could get two eaten before you taste th' gas, too.

TR3driver
06-27-2007, 10:05 AM
I've not tried the milk trick, but my experience with brass floats is that they will not leak at all when you're looking at them, even dunked in fuel. It's the temperature changes that force them to leak.
So, IMO, the best test for a brass float is to heat a pan of water then dunk the float in it and hold it down. If the float leaks, you will soon see a stream of bubbles.

Tinster, you might want to call TRF and see what they say about their pumps. Talk to John Swauger. The issue is just a wrong spring, and you cannot tell which spring is installed from just looking at the outside.

DrEntropy
06-27-2007, 10:14 AM
Water would not pass thru a crack or poor joint in a metal milk can but the milk would positively wizz thru... my granfa'r learned to check gas tanks/containers/floats with milk as a result of this info. I've used it since first seeing it in my 'yout'.

TRDejaVu
06-27-2007, 10:35 AM
Well you learn something new everyday. This is not a smartass question; does the type of milk matter - whole, 2%, 1%?

06-27-2007, 10:41 AM
The TRF pumps are not the same pumps that Moss sells. Moss' pumps are Asian, TRF's pumps are made in Italy to AC specs and are a very high quality. I have one and am very pleased. Call John, he will confirm. Unless they changed in the last 5 months.

Tinster
06-27-2007, 11:03 AM
I'll tell ya Bill, I'm just so disappointed in all this.

I'm fairly sure the Moss rep told me his manufacturer
was in Italy.

Alan thinks he has an old fuel pump at his place. He's
going to look over the weekend. He'll send it to me if he
has one.

PDO Pedro's parts fail, the Triumph vendor's parts fail-
it seems a very uphill battle to get my car operational.

For what it's worth, I did crank over the motor this
morning with the coil in place and choke pulled out.

The car actually started on like the 5th try. It ran
for maybe 20 seconds before it died again. Started again,
ran another 20 seconds and died. I disconnected the battery
and walked away for now.

BUT no gasoline gushing from the rear carb in that brief
time frame. So who knows?

d

TR4
06-27-2007, 11:40 AM
I got my pump from TRF last year and have had no problems with it. I joined their investor program so get a 33% discount on parts and 10% return on my investment. Nice getting a check every month from them instead of money only going their way. Might be worth looking into Dale.

kodanja
06-27-2007, 12:06 PM
Dale have considered SU's or Webbers?

easy conversion

martin_burtt
06-27-2007, 01:24 PM
Well you learn something new everyday. This is not a smartass question; does the type of milk matter - whole, 2%, 1%?

Cow, goat, human..........?

DrEntropy
06-27-2007, 01:46 PM
I s'pose it was whole milk "back in th' day" but I just use what's on the shelf in th' fridge. I don't drink th' stuff anyhow, so this is as good a use as any. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

Tomster
06-27-2007, 01:51 PM
Tinster you are a far better man than I !
I think I'd be looking here:
https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/pp-classifieds/showcat.php?cat=7
Or here
https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/309713/page/3/fpart/1

kodanja
06-27-2007, 02:12 PM
my car is lactose intolerant

06-27-2007, 05:03 PM
Gasoline and milk are similar enough in characteristics. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif


And, similar in price.


Filler'up!

MGTF1250Dave
06-27-2007, 05:21 PM
Aloha Tinster,

Here is a low cost fuel pressure regulator. NAPA may have one similar along with any other auto parts stores you have on island. here is a link

https://www.amazon.com/Spectre-2517-Chrome-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B000CQ46H0

My son used one like this in a Sprite he had, the universal electric fuel pump flooded the carb. The pressure regulator resolved the problem.