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NutmegCT
03-14-2007, 09:45 AM
So you've read yesterday's saga of discovering my starter housing is broken and the ring gear "overly" worn.

Full discovery thread. (https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/264587/Board/5/page/1/fpart/all/gonew/1#UNREAD)

This morning I turned the flywheel through the entire 360 and all the teeth are about the same. "Slightly" ground down as in the previous thread pics, but apparently still serviceable. Plus, no cracks, etc. visible anywhere on the ring.

There are no screw heads visible anywhere. Previous owner confirms his mechanic emphasized the ring gear was "pressed" on.

So what's the next step?

I'm hesitant to just get my early-style bullet nose starter case repaired, as that starter is likely what chewed the gear teeth. There was no shim (Moss 549-430) used. Per Moss, adding a shim on an early starter brings the pinion further away from the ring gear, decreasing mesh. Maybe the lack of the shim caused the problem in the first place?

In Moss catalogue, the early starter is NA. Only the later starter (TS500001+) is available as rebuilt; early starter is recommended to be replaced by the modern design high torque starter.

Brad at Yankee Auto Electric in Pawtucket (thank you Paul!) is looking to see if he can find another housing. He sure knows his stuff.

Thanks all.
Tom

trfourtune
03-14-2007, 10:00 AM
if you don't need originality, then get a reduction starter from tsimported auto
Rob

Twosheds
03-14-2007, 10:34 AM
If you want an original starter, like I wrote in the other thread, I will sell you my old starter or I will strip it and sell you just the part you need.

If you don't care about originality, I second the suggestion to buy Ted Schumacher's gear reduction starter. Pricey when compared to repairing your old one ($40 vs $200 for me), but I thought it was worth it. I put one on my racecar; wasn't going for concours anyway.

NutmegCT
03-14-2007, 11:00 AM
John - Thanks very much for the offer. I'd prefer to keep the original appearance - but need to give weight to having the correct pinion/ring gear "mesh". My concern is more along the line of "will a rebuilt original just grind up the ring gear again".

To be honest, I'd likely also have doubts about *any* starter. I'm requesting experienced minds here to advise me on how one determines whether the pinion gear and ring gear are correctly matched (especially as you can't see inside the bellhousing once any starter is installed).

What are your thoughts?

Tom

Twosheds
03-14-2007, 02:40 PM
What are your thoughts?

Tom


I've told you more than I know already!

NutmegCT
03-14-2007, 04:07 PM
I've told you more than I know already!

Hey - I did that for 35 years. I used to be a teacher!

Brad at Yankee Auto Electric found me a complete original bullet nose starter - even had the same codes stamped in the side. He fixed it up for me and I got it this afternoon.

I'll order the starter shim from Moss and install it this coming weekend. Per Moss the shim slightly "decreases mesh" by pulling the pinion gears back from the ring gear. There was no shim on my original - so here's hoping! It's only money, right?

Now if only there were a clue about whether the addition of the shim will prevent future troubles - or make them worse!

Wish me luck.
Tom

martx-5
03-14-2007, 04:28 PM
I think your troubles started when the PO had whatever welded so the pinion gear "wouldn't slip". My guess is that the ratcheting teeth on the starter drive were stripped, or something else with the drive was broken, and that's what was welded. When you do that, the pinion over-run feature is negated. That will make it difficult for the pinion to disengage from the flywheel when the engine starts.

I would just go ahead and put in the new starter. You'll know right away if there's a problem with engagement. But, I think you'll be OK.

Brosky
03-14-2007, 04:37 PM
In the old days when we used to actually shim starters, we always marked the teeth of the drive with "bluing" and tried the starter without shims. If the noise wasn't what we wanted to hear, i.e., smooth engage/disengagement, we would pull it, look at the bluing and see whether it had to go out a bit more or a lot more (one versus two shims).

Generally, if it had no shim(s), it needed none. If one was present, it was iffy. If two were in, it was a definite.

NutmegCT
03-14-2007, 04:50 PM
Here's a closeup of one of the two welds. A similar weld 180 degrees around.

closeup of one of the two welds (https://www.mgexperience.net/journal/pictures/view/1765)

Wonder what the weld was to accomplish?

T.

MGTF1250Dave
03-14-2007, 05:19 PM
Aloha Tom,

The weld is on the the "sleeve assembly". This piece consists of two parts that are metal, in inner sleeve with lugs around the outer surface and the outer sleeve with lugs on the inner surface. The assembly in filled with rubber that joins the two. The purpose was to take up the shock of the motor engaging the ring gear. Age will eventually cause the rubber to perish. When this happens, the starter will spin but no movement is transferred to the starter pinion. It would appear that this happen at one time and the fix used was to weld the pieces together rather than purchase the correct part(Moss part # 549-580 or Victoria British 8-4271). Looking at your photo of the welded piece that may be the root of the problem. The rubber filled sleeve assembly and the pinion should fit flush together with no space between the two. If they don't it will be pushing the pinion further into the ring gear.

DrEntropy
03-14-2007, 05:33 PM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] It would appear that this happen at one time and the fix used was to weld the pieces together rather than purchase the correct part(Moss part # 549-580 or Victoria British 8-4271). Looking at your photo of the welded piece that may be the root of the problem. The rubber filled sleeve assembly and the pinion should fit flush together with no space between the two. If they don't it will be pushing the pinion further into the ring gear.[/QUOTE] *please excuse the highlight edit, Dave?*

yup-yup! pinion could even have been "tipping" the ring gear for some period. That would explain the impact "dimples" in the peaks (points) of the ring gear teeth too. A double spacer MAY have precluded the damage (by moving the pinion away from the flywheel) but it's still a bodge.

I wouldn't call the starter scrap, but it would need the snout replaced and the "shock spindle" Dave describes before using it again.

Twosheds
03-14-2007, 05:34 PM
I've told you more than I know already!

Hey - I did that for 35 years. I used to be a teacher!

Tom


I was a teacher for years. They actually thought I knew what I was talking about! Hah!

DrEntropy
03-14-2007, 05:37 PM
'If ya can't blind 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with..."

Bovine excretia!!!!

/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif

NutmegCT
03-14-2007, 05:46 PM
'If ya can't blind 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with..."


Anyone remember this quote?

"Don't worry Jim, if that question comes up, I'll just confuse them."

President Eisenhower to Press Secretary Jim Hagerty who pleaded with Eisenhower not to answer any press conference questions about the delicate Formosan Strait crisis, March 23, 1955. (Eisenhower was later asked if using atomic weapons on China was an option. He delivered a long, confusing reply which was effectively indecipherable - and "prevented misunderstanding".)

T.

Geo Hahn
03-14-2007, 06:25 PM
Wonder what the weld was to accomplish?

That rubber drive unit is like a shock absorber for the moment when the pinion engages the flywheel. When the rubber bit inside fails the starter starts to slip, eventually just spinning w/o getting the pinion up to engagement speed.

For many years (70s into the 80s) these drive units were NLA. I rebuilt mine by cramming lots of strips of inner tube between the inner and outer shells of the unit then forcing them together in a vise. Has worked fine that way for more than 20 years.

Looks like your prior owner 'fixed' the slipping problem with a bit of welding -- that would make for an abrupt and unkind engagement I think.

I now have a replacement drive unit that I will install someday when I have the starter out.

Good for you for staying with the old bullet nose -- I'm sure the gear reduction starters are great replacements for a tired original unit but a rebuilt unit starts the engine (even one with increased compression) just dandy and is very easy to service if need be.

Brosky
03-14-2007, 08:14 PM
Eisenhower was a career military man, first, president second.

With that resume, you could confuse Einstein.

NutmegCT
03-14-2007, 08:25 PM
With all the help I've received here, I actually feel (almost) competent enough to put that starter (the one from Yankee Auto Electric) into my car this weekend.

I'll do a preliminary measure to estimate where the pinion gear will extend into the ring gear area, then complete the installation. If it seems the pinion gear extends too far, I'll order the shim from Moss. Won't replace the carb linkage (I took the starter out from above) until I've given the starter a test.

By the way, I also want to thank my TR's previous owner for his messages regarding the starter/ring gear repair history, and for sending me all the old maintenance records. Please note that he did not request the welding job on the starter; his mechanic told him he had repaired several starters that way in the past.

Thanks again all.
Tom

Don Elliott
03-14-2007, 08:36 PM
Just before 9/11, I had the rubber joint inside the front piece of my starter (like the photo above) wear out and so I ordered a new one from Moss. But we all know that all flights were grounded for about 10 days after 9/11 and I didn't get the new part for about a month.

So on 9/11, I MIG welded the defective one on mine so that it would operate as a one-piece item without the rubber working to cushion the jolt. Even after I got the new one, I was still running with the welded one. The next spring I up-dated my starter with the new part and it's been fine ever since.

But during the time I ran with the welded unit, the car started every time and I never had a problem. I carry the welded one in my tool box when I'm on the road, just in case I need to use it as a spare. But I do have a hand crank as well so I have several alternatives. And there are lots of strong young lads who would always be willing to give me a push start if I had to.

DrEntropy
03-14-2007, 08:36 PM
There's NO PO condemnation here, Tom.

For your measurements use TWO good straight-edges. One preferably a good machinist's scale for depth comparison.

achtungeveryone
03-15-2007, 10:44 AM
if someone can decifer Ike's "long confusing reply" (when he said what he said) then we may have the solution to fixing this mating issue (the starter and ring gear that is...)