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Tinster
01-30-2007, 06:00 PM
Ok, yet another Crypt Car puzzle.

I pulled the driveshaft out because the u-joints
needed replacing. I bought the best TR6 U-joints
money can buy.

I took the entire shooting match to a professional
shop with proper hydraulic presses, etc.

Stopped by an hour ago to pick up the finished product.

"No can do" says the owner of the shop. The U-joints
I brought him are too large for the driveshaft assembly I
brought to him. They began to split apart before they were
completely pressed together.

So I have the option to have the driveshaft custom machined
to fit the U-joints, (quite pricey) or I can purchase the
proper U-joints for the driveshaft I removed from my car.

From this photo, can anyone identify what make and year
car this driveshaft was originally made for. And what U-joints do I need to purchsae now? The TR6 kit is now
paperweight material.

thanks, dale

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/UJOINT.jpg

Harry_Ward
01-30-2007, 07:44 PM
Dale,

Those flanges look correct to me. Hardy Spicer u-joint Moss #674-650 fits TR2,TR3,TR4,TR4A,TR250 and TR6 so if the flanges which attach to the rear and tranny are correct as pictured what's the actual drive shaft look like?(picture?) Anything bent looking on the ears of the actual shaft? What exactly is splitting apart? Ok, Just had to ask. Hope the grease fitting was removed prior to trying the install?

Tinster
01-30-2007, 07:45 PM
I could really use some help here guys.
A professional was unable to accomplish
this task.

With no driveshaft connection to tranny
presently possible, the Crypt Car will never
move under it's own power.

Someone must have a doable suggestion?

thanks, Dale

Brosky
01-30-2007, 09:01 PM
Dale,

There are many things that have been changed on your car, but the drive shaft will have to mate to the gearbox and differential. As far as I know, you have a TR6 differential and the transmission should be the same flange, be it from a 250 or a TR6.

Did the shop take the old joints out and match them to the new before he tried to install, to compare sizes, etc.? Do you still have the old joints to match them? Maybe someone sent you the wrong joints.

If this is a becoming a problem, I have a spare drive shaft which is in good shape at my office. I forgot to bring it home last week when it came from the ebay shipper, so I can take pics tomorrow and post them to compare the shafts.

If you can't get yours fixed, I'll send you mine, if it looks like a fit. I want to see this devil on the road and I'll happily donate the shaft to see that happen.

And what's up with that mile long grease fitting? You could lube the props on the Queen Mary with that thing....

Andrew Mace
01-30-2007, 11:08 PM
And what's up with that mile long grease fitting? You could lube the props on the Queen Mary with that thing.... Seems to me that's pretty much the grease fitting that came with some of my last batch of Hardy Spicer u-joints for the Herald. I do NOT leave them in place; rather I use the threaded plugs. But the nice thing about these grease fittings is that they're long enough that you can actually get at them with a grease gun!

Keoke
01-31-2007, 01:27 AM
HI Paul, as Andy noted; that mile long grease fitting provides access for a grease gun to lube the joint!---Fwiw--Keoke

Keoke
01-31-2007, 01:30 AM
Dale!! the more I see of "Professionals" like yours, the better I like Flys.--Keoke

Tinster
01-31-2007, 08:08 AM
The long grease fittings came with the
Hardy-Spicer u-joints.

Paul: I purchased the Roadster Factory
U-joints as their entire car kit for
a TR6.

I don't know if the shop saved the old U-joints
or not. I'll try to find time to go over there
today. I am scheduled to take possession of my
"other" car today. It will then go immediately
to the custom convertible top guru.

This u-joint thing has me stumped. I don't know
whether to machine the openings for the TR6 u-joints
and buy new TR6 joints to replace the two that
busted while trying to install.

Or purchase a set of TR4 U-joints and see if they fit.
It looks like this is going to be a long, drawn out
process and pricey as well.

d

Harry_Ward
01-31-2007, 08:41 AM
Dale,

I guess you missed my post, The TR2,TR3,TR4,TR250 and TR6 use the same Hardy Spicer U-joint. I had a few questions and concerns. Did they remove the grease fitting before trying to install the u-joint bearing cap? Is anything bent or distorted on the actual driveshaft the bearing fits?

Tinster
01-31-2007, 09:12 AM
Here is a photo of the partially
installed u-joint.

The bearing cap has begun to shatter
and the joint is so stiff it will hardly
move. It is maybe 1/16" from full install.

The u-joint is too large a diameter for the
flange hole. The flange hole itself is over
compressing the sides of the bearing cap.
Maybe the flange is not from a Triumph TR
series car?

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/shatter.jpg

Harry_Ward
01-31-2007, 09:31 AM
Dale,

Once again I am depressed to see something that normally should not occur. The cap usually breaks first not the cross shaft? Maybe the inside of the flange U-Joint holes need to be emory sanded to get you the clearance you need? Maybe one of the needle bearings moved (or is of the wrong size) while pressing the cap on. Or maybe the flange hole is not round anymore when they pounded out the old u-joint bearing caps? I would take Paul up on his gracious offer though it's too good to pass up!

Tinster
01-31-2007, 09:39 AM
Hi Harry:

Thanks for the input.
I would gladly take Paul up on his offer
if I knew for sure it would fit and match
up with what I have.

The new carbs required a custom made throttle
shaft because the engine sits about 1 1/2" closer
to the firewall than normal.

I think that would push the tranny back by
1 1/2" also? Maybe shorten the driveshaft ?

So many pieces of this car are oddball I don't
know what to order anymore.

d

Harry_Ward
01-31-2007, 09:54 AM
Dale,

Driveshaft should move in and out on the spline which should be able to handle 1.5 inches of travel to the rear? If the shaft cannot compress to the desired length seperate the two halves and cut off some of the splined end of the shaft to allow it to compress further. Caution... Measure twice and take off as little as possible to fit if need be. Failure to remove the grease fitting when installing u-joints will also cause a lot of pressure build up if the grease has no where to expand and will usually blow the seal and or not allow the bearing cap to seat properly. Good Luck!

YankeeTR
01-31-2007, 10:01 AM
It looks to me like the installer had one needle bearing come out of place and it's laying FLAT on the cap. That's the only thing that would keep the cap from hitting home.

It's a common mistake made by rookies and pros alike...I've seen it happen many times.

The only answer is to take the joint apart and do one of two things...1) get a new joint since the cap is now junk or 2)Use the new needle bearings from the new joint but put them in the old cap. Since I'm not one to fret about details, I'd use the new needles and the old cap.

It will probably go another 100k without problems.

Without a doubt Dale, this is operator error.

TRMark
01-31-2007, 11:06 AM
It looks to me like the installer had one needle bearing come out of place and it's laying FLAT on the cap. That's the only thing that would keep the cap from hitting home.

It's a common mistake made by rookies and pros alike...I've seen it happen many times.

The only answer is to take the joint apart and do one of two things...1) get a new joint since the cap is now junk or 2)Use the new needle bearings from the new joint but put them in the old cap. Since I'm not one to fret about details, I'd use the new needles and the old cap.

It will probably go another 100k without problems.

Without a doubt Dale, this is operator error.


Yankee TR has it right. Recognized the problem as soon as I saw your picture. I did this once many years ago when I was young, dumb and careless. They let the shop idiot do the work and won't own up to it.

swift6
01-31-2007, 11:23 AM
The new carbs required a custom made throttle
shaft because the engine sits about 1 1/2" closer
to the firewall than normal.

I think that would push the tranny back by
1 1/2" also? Maybe shorten the driveshaft ?

It would push the tranny back by 1 1/2". However there is only about 1 1/2 inches of clearance between the block and the firewall to begin with. That is a huge move for the engine. How close is the back side of the engine to the firewall now?

The driveshaft your showing looks like a TR6 unit. Though to be sure, do you have a photo of the entire unit instead of just the yolks.

Have to agree with the above stated though that there was a problem in installing. If they were other wise too big, they wouldn't have even gone in that far.

It might be time for you to learn to change u-joints. Once you've done it once, you can do it again. With six u-joints in a TR6 knowing how to do it yourself can be a good thing. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Harry_Ward
01-31-2007, 11:39 AM
It looks to me like the installer had one needle bearing come out of place and it's laying FLAT on the cap. That's the only thing that would keep the cap from hitting home.

It's a common mistake made by rookies and pros alike...I've seen it happen many times.

The only answer is to take the joint apart and do one of two things...1) get a new joint since the cap is now junk or 2)Use the new needle bearings from the new joint but put them in the old cap. Since I'm not one to fret about details, I'd use the new needles and the old cap.

It will probably go another 100k without problems.

Without a doubt Dale, this is operator error.


Yankee TR has it right. Recognized the problem as soon as I saw your picture. I did this once many years ago when I was young, dumb and careless. They let the shop idiot do the work and won't own up to it.

I have to admit that I have had needle bearings move on more than one occasion and I've been putting those things together for twentynine years. Wow, wish I hadn't added that up! Anyway use some heavy grease to try and hold those needles in place before you commence to banging on it. Oh, I mean pressing it in. I have also been sent brand new u-joints right out of the box with different size needles in them so a close inspection prior to install is in order either way. The mechanic here actually removes all the needles, cleans, inspects, and then repacks everything prior to installing.

DNK
01-31-2007, 11:52 AM
You know, I am kind of baffled and amazed that Dale is having so much trouble. For the life of me I can not understand how he has not committed Hari Kari already. That car would be 50 feet in the ocean by know if it was mine. Got to give it to you Dale, your a stronger man than me!!!

TRopic6
01-31-2007, 12:37 PM
YankeeTR and Mark got it. I had this happen last year when I was changing U-joints. I bought an extra one just in case, based on my track record!
You can change them working carefully with a vice and some sockets. If you mess up (as I did), it's no big deal. I got tired of 1) paying people to learn how to work on old cars, or 2) paying people to make mistakes I could make myself for free...

Jeff Fetner
Hawaii
74 TR6

Brosky
01-31-2007, 01:41 PM
OK, Dale one last time. I'm going to make this as painless as possible. The two shafts I pictured below are for a TR6. The black one with no wrap is my reconditioned shaft with new joints. The second one that looks like "the Mummy" is yours, if you want it. I started to wrap it in plastic and get it ready to ship, but thought that I would double check since you haven't replied. I bought these at the same time, completely stripped and rebuilt one and was going to sell the other. The joints are fine, with no play.

It is used, but in good shape. For you and because of the things that others on this forum have done or given to me, it's free. I'll even mail (no charge) it this afternoon if you send me your address. I have an address for you, but want to verify.

The balls in your court.................

trrdster2000
01-31-2007, 01:58 PM
Dale, If this is not a turned bearing, I have a scenario that the DPO may have done. He may have used a GT6 drive shaft as the holes in the flange are the larger or same as the TR series but has a smaller bearing. Get the shaft from Paul as you have a couple of weeks of down time and then you will know you are right.

Wayne

swift6
01-31-2007, 03:22 PM
We've seen the transmission and differential so we know that those are TR parts as well. If a GT6 driveshaft was used then get a proper TR6 shaft in there. However I still think there was some operator error on the installation of that u-joint and that you do have a TR6 driveshaft.

Sounds like Paul's is ready for you to install though with no more fuss.

Tinster
01-31-2007, 06:07 PM
Been out all afternoon running errands.

Yes Paul, I think it's time I take you
up on your offer. All dimensions and shapes
seem to check out.

What can I say?

Gracias mi hermano; siempre mi casa es tu casa.

Please name a charity that Wendy and I may make
a donation in your name.

address to follow

d

Brosky
01-31-2007, 09:32 PM
The charity that I request will be to help another fellow British car owner when you can, as I'm trying to do for you. It could be as small as a rotor when someone needs it. Just keep the hobby and camaraderie from this forum alive and well.

Drive shaft will be mailed out priority mail tomorrow from Harry & Kodanja land. You should have by Mon or Tues at latest, maybe Sat.

Good luck!

Keoke
02-01-2007, 12:14 AM
Hi All, I looked at this last picture and IMOP compression by the yoke did not cause the fractures. These flaws, Grain Boundary Separations, may be the result of improper machining, Over heated, or improperly quenching. Given that the metal in the yokes is softer than the Bearings, Cap or the Cross shaft I would not expect this to happen as an installation problem.--Fwiw---Keoke

AweMan
02-01-2007, 03:52 AM
It looks to me like the installer had one needle bearing come out of place and it's laying FLAT on the cap. That's the only thing that would keep the cap from hitting home.

It's a common mistake made by rookies and pros alike...I've seen it happen many times.

The only answer is to take the joint apart and do one of two things...1) get a new joint since the cap is now junk or 2)Use the new needle bearings from the new joint but put them in the old cap. Since I'm not one to fret about details, I'd use the new needles and the old cap.

It will probably go another 100k without problems.

Without a doubt Dale, this is operator error.


I agree with YankeeTR
If you dissasemble the universal and do find a needle berring out of place, I suggest to you that the shop you commisioned to replace your universal joint owes you a new universal joint. However I wouldn`t suggest mixing berrings and caps ETC. Instead I would insist that the shop replace what they are responsible for breaking. In fact I might go as far as to have another reputable shop do the dissasembly in order to document exactly what the problem is/was.
Kerry
Revision:
Make that a driveline shop to do the dissasembly and documentation.

Tinster
02-01-2007, 04:14 AM
Kerry,

Thanks for the input.
That is all well and good but I am fortunate
when I am able locate ANY shop in Puerto Rico
even willing to attempt to work on the TR6.

There are NO Brit car experienced shops here.
It is always a learning curve for me and the
mechanic.

d

Tinster
02-01-2007, 05:38 AM
"Make that a driveline shop to do the dissasembly and documentation."

That will happen.
The owner wants future business from me.

Thanks,

d

02-01-2007, 07:12 AM
These cars are simple. Always look for the easiest fix first. Usually a screw-up is the culprit. This is all 1940s technology. Oldtimer mechanics usually do well with these.

Brosky
02-01-2007, 08:46 PM
Your next drive shaft was mailed priority mail this morning, from beautiful North Haven, CT. You should have it in 3 days, so say Monday-Tuesday at the latest. I'll email you the tracking numbers.

YankeeTR
02-01-2007, 11:12 PM
These cars are simple. Always look for the easiest fix first. Usually a screw-up is the culprit. This is all 1940s technology. Oldtimer mechanics usually do well with these.
That's MR Old Timer to you! hehehe

Tinster
02-02-2007, 06:26 AM
Thanks Paul

d

Tinster
02-02-2007, 09:39 AM
Yupper,

"It looks to me like the installer had one needle bearing come out of place and it's laying FLAT on the cap. That's the only thing that would keep the cap from hitting home.

It's a common mistake made by rookies and pros alike...I've seen it happen many times."

dead-on correct.

I could not get the cap off the u-joint
so it stuck it in the grinder. So I ground
off the top of the cap.

Sitting on top was a needle bearing.
Will post photo later

Now, how do I get this ground off u-joint
out of the flange?

d

Harry_Ward
02-02-2007, 10:22 AM
Dale,

This is for a jeep but the pictures are great. Same principles apply for removing U-Joints on a TR6. To answer your question though you beat it out from the opposite side follow the link below and it should explain it.

https://www.stu-offroad.com/axle/ujoint2/ujoint-1.htm

Brosky
02-02-2007, 11:06 AM
At this point in time, Dale probably needs to beat on something, so here's his chance.

AweMan
02-02-2007, 12:24 PM
Tinster
ONCE YOU GET THE CROSS {TRUNION} OUT OF THE WAY USE AN OLD CAP AND BEAT IT ON THRU. two people will help, one to hold the shaft over a vise with the jaws opened silghtly larger than the cap is, place the shaft ground off cap side down on the vise place the old cap in position then using a punch and a big hammer hit it on thru {an old socket the correct size will work as well} the cap shouldn`t be all that tight in the housing.
P.S. if the cap locks are in place make sure you remove them first..
Revision: If you have access to a dremel tool you could very carefuly grind a slot in the cap to relieve the pressure. do not grind into the housing tho.
then the cap should become very easy to remove.
Kerry

Tinster
02-02-2007, 01:47 PM
Ok Guys,

Here is a photo od the u-joint. I was able to pry off
the black rubber band and I could see one needle
bearing was missing under the cap.

I tried everything to get one of the caps off to
remove the cross assembly but failed. With hammer
and socket and vice I could move the cross shaft
and end caps back and forth.

But I could not twist off either cap. YES!! I removed
the sprink locks first.

So I put the u-joint to the grinder.

The photo demonstrates quite well the needle bearing
that was sitting under the cap. The needle bearing was cause of the broken u-joint cap.

Great diagnostic call by several members. Installer
error.

But now? How do I get this thing apart with no damage
to the flange?

Thanks--dale

https://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/TinsterTR6/needle.jpg

Tinster
02-02-2007, 01:52 PM
Hey Dale,

Fantastic close-up photo!!

Impressed myself.

d

AweMan
02-02-2007, 02:28 PM
Dale:
Surly you do not plan to re use the old/new cross.
If not, lay the yoke {flange} on your vise again, remove the end caps that are not in the yolk {flange} take a large hammer and hit the cross directly with the hammer in the direction of the damaged cap and needle it should move outward. Then turn the yoke over and do the same in the other direction. The end caps should move outward enough to remove the cross. Then go for the caps with the punch and hammer
You will need to strike the cross with a firm hard blow in order to move the caps
Be sure that the caps are not obstructed by the vice jaws.
B.T.W. I went out in the garage this A.M. and looked at my baby. Even went as far as to take a re look at my Comm # I`m excited about geting going on it once again. {It`s pretty much in bits and peices, chasis done and tub on but thats about it}
TS-12909 L.O. manufactured in 1956 titled in 1957 so what do I call it? a 56 or a 57 Hahahahahaha. In any case it does have the smallmouth apron, no exterior door handles, no trunk handle like the tr-3 a`s and only one brake/license plate light centered in the rear. Other than those features just another Tr *SMILE* And yea you can have it {bring more guns and ammo than I have here for the gunfight thats going to happen when you come to get it} lol
{I wish I could spell, then I wouldn`t have to keep editing these posts hahahahahahaha.}
Kerry

John Loftus
02-02-2007, 03:18 PM
Your next drive shaft was mailed priority mail this morning, from beautiful North Haven, CT. You should have it in 3 days, so say Monday-Tuesday at the latest. I'll email you the tracking numbers.

Paul,

I've been lurking on this thread (well, all the crypty threads because it's a lot better than t.v.) and just have to step in and give you props (or as the Brits might say, proper respect). That was an amazingly cool thing to do.

Cheers,
John

Harry_Ward
02-02-2007, 04:54 PM
I agree Paul that was a generous act!


Dale, Once the cross is out, and you punch the cap out enough, you may be able to grab hold of it with a pair of vice grips and twist it out while tapping down on the vice grip with a small hammer. Once the cap is out throw the offending cap as hard as you can with out damaging yourself!


Kerry, If your using Internet Explorer or better here's a handy spell checker. once installed just right click on your message body and highlight spell check and it does a spell check. Also has a dictionary and thesaurus for all that secret code DrE uses. Well some of it anyway. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

https://www.iespell.com/

DNK
02-02-2007, 04:59 PM
Kerry change to Firefox and it edits itself as in Word.

Brosky
02-02-2007, 06:00 PM
Thanks, John, but I'm sure that any number of others would have done the same for him if they had a spare sitting around and saw what Dale was going though. No accolades needed because helping is what this forum is all about.

Bill and a few others have helped me when I needed something, so I'm just returning the favor to someone else.

Brosky
02-02-2007, 06:05 PM
Hey John, I'll tell ya what's cool. Your magical O/D switch. Nice job!!

Tinster
02-03-2007, 10:46 AM
Harry-

Thanks for the advice-

I tired all those things and the caps would
not budge. My goal was to have the flange undamaged.

I took the flange and u-joint back to the shop and
told them to remove the defective install. Two new
TRF u-joints should arrive late next week.

When Paul,s driveshaft arrives, I will rehab mine
and it will be waiting for anyone who needs it.

Nice day today but windy.

d