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Tinkerman
09-08-2006, 04:47 PM
Afternoon:
I keep hearing about matching numbers in Concours judging. Never had to worry about it with previous restorations but am worried about it with this one. What numbers must match and in what way, or is it not even a problem?
Many thanks for any info you pass my way.
Regards, Tinkerman

jsneddon
09-08-2006, 04:58 PM
numbers on commission number will almost definately never match the engine numbers. While TR3s were being produced many engines were pulled off the line for use by Morgan (and others?). So the engine number is usually a couple thousand higher than the commission number. The only way to know to some degree of certainty if your engine is original to the car is to purchase a Heritage Certificate from the remnants of BMC/Leyland/whatever in the UK.

I say with a degree of certainty because the Heritage Certificate can have mistakes too. They are copying information by hand from semi-legible microfilm records. But it is as close as you are going to get.

more info here:
https://www.mgcars.org.uk/namgar/bmiht/bmiht.htm

I've never heard a satisfactory explaination of the raised numbers on the brass plaques on the body. But you can definately get the build date, original color and fitments, and original engine number if you supply them with the commission number from your car.

txtr3
09-08-2006, 05:05 PM
I concur with Jim's post.

I don't think a judge could determine on a TR3A whether the chassis and engine numbers are "matching", not exactly anyway. The numbers were not the same. They seem to be just incremented serial numbers, and there were more engines built than chassis. You can have a general idea, though, based on the guidelines in Piggot's "Original TR2/3" book.

The judges would be able to tell the difference between a TR3A and TR3B/TR4 number, since they have different numbering schemes. TS##### for a TR3A, and (I think) TCF#### for TR3B.

One way for you to know whether your numbers match is to get a heritage certificate with original production details from British Motor Industry Heritage Trust. From my certificate, I found that my 59 TR3A does have the original engine. To give you an idea of the number spread around the time of your car, my "matching" numbers are:

TS51385LO (chassis)
TS50131E (engine)

--Jiri

Tinkerman
09-08-2006, 05:27 PM
Thanks Jim and Jiri.
My next question is: Do the tranny numbers have to match anything. I am changing to a TR4 syncro mesh tranny. The one that came with the car was not syncro and the PO bought a '4 syncro to put in there. Also have the overdrive unit to go on it.
I will send the info off to the Heritage Society to get their input.
Again many thanks. Tinkerman

jsneddon
09-08-2006, 05:38 PM
quite frankly if you switch the shift lever from the 'bent' TR4 configuration to the original stub lever on a TR3 (it's a straight bolt-on swap) I really don't think anyone is going to know. You really have to dig in there to find the number on the tranny and most concourse judging doesn't allow for the judge to actually drive your car. I don't know if the heritage cert. shows the tranny number or not.

I guess it boils down to what you want to do with the car. If you want to be a perfect 100 point car in your mind then you have to decide how honest you want to be about the original gearbox. I've got a TR4 trans. in my car (and a TR4 motor too) and I am rather fond of the first gear sync.... but I learned to drive on a MGTD without the first gear sync with no problems too. A little double-clutching and matching speeds and you can downshift into first and impress the ladies /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

No matter what I'd keep the original trans for a little extra value down the line if you sell it and the buyer wants to nickel-and-dime you to death on originality.

Andrew Mace
09-08-2006, 07:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
numbers on commission number will almost definately never match the engine numbers. While TR3s were being produced many engines were pulled off the line for use by Morgan (and others?). So the engine number is usually a couple thousand higher than the commission number.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, I think most "original" engine numbers will be within a few hundred or so of the commission number on a sidescreen series car, but virtually always higher (because engines were used by Morgan, Peerless/Warwick, Swallow Doretti, etc., etc., at various times).[ QUOTE ]
I've never heard a satisfactory explaination of the raised numbers on the brass plaques on the body.

[/ QUOTE ]The (usually) painted plate with the (usually) six-digit number is the serial number of the "body in white" (bare, unpainted), while the "EBxxxxxx" number plate (usually unpainted brass) is the serial number of a completely painted and trimmed body about to be united with a similarly finished and ready chassis.

jsneddon
09-08-2006, 08:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The (usually) painted plate with the (usually) six-digit number is the serial number of the "body in white" (bare, unpainted), while the "EBxxxxxx" number plate (usually unpainted brass) is the serial number of a completely painted and trimmed body about to be united with a similarly finished and ready chassis.

[/ QUOTE ]

But with not much of a relationship to the commision number yes???

And is there a frame number? I can't recall.

YankeeTR
09-08-2006, 08:29 PM
The TR3's I've seen all seem to have the same # stamped into the front crossmember...no others but I may be wrong.

Geo Hahn
09-08-2006, 09:07 PM
Tinkerman -- sounds like you are concerned about 'concours correct'. If you are and do not have a copy of the Triumph Register of America (TRA) concours manual let me know & I can send it to you as a pdf attachment. It will answer your question about numbers and *much* more.

Andy -- Do you suppose 'EB' stood for envelope body?

Andrew Mace
09-08-2006, 10:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[Body number plates] But with not much of a relationship to the commision number yes???

[/ QUOTE ]No, not both of them, at least not at all like the "correlation" of engine or gearbox (or even rear axle) numbers to the commission number!

Best thing here is to give an example of a car with known "matching numbers"

1960 TR3A, built 3/28/60:

Commission number: TS71909L
Engine number: TS72103E
Body numbers: EB70481; 1075235

You can see that the "EB" number is in the same neighborhood as the commission and engine numbers. I honestly don't know how the "body in white" numbers worked, unless they were total numbers of ALL bodies -- TR and otherwise -- built by Mulliners for Triumph. (Mulliners also built Renown bodies and did estate car conversions of part-complete saloon bodies for Standard-Triumph.)

Adrio
09-08-2006, 11:42 PM
I think you can tell the difference between the TR3 non synchro box and the TR4 synchro box by looking at the outside of the box. For one the bulge for the starter is bigger on the TR4 box (I think there were some non synchro boxes with the bigger bulge, I have one). I opted for the non synchro overdrive box that would fit in the car as I was more concerned with overdrive then synchro.

Tinkerman
09-09-2006, 01:50 PM
Hi George: Thanks for the offer I do have the manual. From what I read about it in the manual their is no mention of any relationship between the Tranny numbers and any other number. Indeed,as some one pointed out, it would be well nigh impossible for a judge to get to the tranny number. I have stopped worrying about it.

Cheers, Tinkerman

martx-5
09-10-2006, 08:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think you can tell the difference between the TR3 non synchro box and the TR4 synchro box by looking at the outside of the box. For one the bulge for the starter is bigger on the TR4 box (I think there were some non synchro boxes with the bigger bulge, I have one).

[/ QUOTE ]

Triumph changed the bell housing casting with the big bulge to accomadate the starter that has the drive sticking out the back at about TS50,000 in the TR3 run.

You should have a non-synchro box with the big bulge where the starter mounts, as your chassis number is way past TS50,000. Triumph also changed the thickness of the bell housing flange during the TR3 run, but I don't remember when this happened. My guess would be when they changed the starter bulge, but it may have been much earlier. Either way, I don't think you could tell the difference between the post 50,000 tranny from the TR4 tranny just by looking at it.

Geo Hahn
09-10-2006, 02:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Triumph changed the bell housing casting with the big bulge to accomadate the starter that has the drive sticking out the back at about TS50,000 in the TR3 run...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that was also when they eliminated the dip-stick on the top of the gearbox. In my opinion, that was a lousy way to cut the cost by 50p.