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michalotti_tr
04-27-2006, 10:37 AM
Since it looks like I'm not going to get Chance running this year (lack of funds, lack of time), I'm going back over engine swap options - one option that appeals to me is the E5 piston conversion on the Triumph 6 cyl. Has anyone on the list done this, have any insights, caveats, etc? Anybody got a spare 6 cyl longblock they'd be willing to donate? (ok, I know that's a long shot/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif) 2.7L has alot of appeal, especially with keeping the car all-Triumph. If I do this, I do plan on a full documentation on my website, since all I have been able to find are oblique references to it so far.

Ok, I've stirred up the hornet's nest, let the fun begin! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

04-27-2006, 11:35 AM
This is the Mazda one right?

michalotti_tr
04-27-2006, 11:51 AM
Sorry, should have been a bit clearer - yes it is

04-27-2006, 12:17 PM
I looked at doing this a while back. I only found 1 place where there was any sort of description - it's a pretty easy google search so you probably already found it - bottom of the page.

https://www.hottr6.com/triumph/TR6motor.html

This put me off enough to go Wiseco instead.

04-27-2006, 12:23 PM
one that did:

https://home.iprimus.com.au/tridim/triumph/Engine.htm

michalotti_tr
04-27-2006, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I did find Shane's website - also found one other in Australia ( https://home.iprimus.com.au/tridim/triumph/Engine.htm ) that was more positive, but not much more forthcoming on details. I'm sending him an email to see if I can get more info, but thought I'd try the forum first.

bobh
04-27-2006, 12:42 PM
Ray, do you have a copy of Williams' book on improving the TR250 and TR6? He has a section in there where he discusses the Mazda pistons. It's been a while since I read it, but it seem like there is a caution about the accuracy of the cylinder locations. I think he recommends having the block sonically tested to determine if there is sufficient wall thickness to handle the overbore.
I can check next week. After today I'm off to the Mitty.

michalotti_tr
04-27-2006, 12:49 PM
I don't have a copy of that book, but I read on Shane's site about the wall thickness. I thought it might be doable if I could sleeve the bores to insure sufficient thickness. Whenever you have time, I would appreciate your checking the book.

Good luck at the Mitty (maybe someday I'll get to go too!)

Rusticus
04-27-2006, 01:13 PM
Ray, IMO it's no longer "all-Triumph" when you start putting Mazda pistons in the thing. Sounds like a way to spend mega bux and still not get 200 streetable, reliable HP. O-rings to seal the head/block? Making the wrist-pins work - Yikes.

Get serious man, drop a TR8 motor (or other Rover V8) in there. Arrrrrggggghhh! Now we're talkin'! Just icing on the cake that it's 150 lbs lighter than the six lump and you don't have cylinders 1+2 hanging out in front of the front axle CL. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

Just IMHO - if you really are considerin' your options. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

michalotti_tr
04-27-2006, 01:55 PM
The V8 is a nice option and I have considered it, but one of the things that really appeal to me about the TR is the silky, seductive power of the straight 6 (I know, I have a 4 right now). I have pretty much narrowed down my choices to the Triumph 6 cyl or to go with the Toyota 6 (maybe even the turbo version). If money were no option, I'd go with the Toy motor(all aluminum like the Rover), and have better than 200 reliable hp. Someone told me with the right turbo you could get 600 hp out of it - tempting, but I think I'd have to pass on that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

04-27-2006, 02:02 PM
jooi - what else are you planning on doing to it?

bobh
04-27-2006, 02:23 PM
Ray,
I'll check the book and get back to you next week. I'm in Alabama. Be at my house by noon or so tomorrow and you can go to the Mitty. My wife isn't interested, my sons are away at college. I'm going solo. The only problem may be rain.
Speaking of a Toyota motor... The straight 6 from the last of the Supras is a killer. The car was available with a single turbo or twin turbos. The twin was rated at 320 HP. That was a lot of power in 1997. In the back of my mind I'm hashing over how to build my TVR. There are plenty of people who have small block Ford engines. The Toyota engine would be a neat choice. I'm not interested in the turbo. But a triple carb setup, a little work on the cam covers to eliminate the Toyota lettering and it would look like a Jag mill. Plus you have the option of a 6 speed, if you can find one.

michalotti_tr
04-27-2006, 02:31 PM
Thanks for the invite, I don't think I could make it in time. Get back with me on what the book says whenever you have time - no rush on my part. I tend to agree with you about the turbo - just a bit of overkill in a LBC. On the other hand, my dream build would have a six pack carb design from PRI along with some tuned headers to go with it. Pick up a 6 speed tranny and Goodparts diff conversion and the drivetrain should be golden!

michalotti_tr
04-27-2006, 02:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
jooi - what else are you planning on doing to it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just laid out the dream drivetrain setup - if I go with the Triumph engine I'd still like either a triple SU/Stromberg setup or the PRI 6-pack. I plan on a good street cam, but haven't narrowed down my choices yet. Headers also seem to be a difficult choice, other than not going with Pacesetters.

I'll be keeping my overdrive tranny, but might do the Goodparts diff depending on what kind of horsepower I get.

Suspension wise, I'm going with a coilover conversion for the front, Goodparts springs for the rear and a matched set of adjustable swaybars. I've already got my Bullitt wheels mounted and have enough rubber that the car should run like it's on rails /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I've already got fiberglass fenders all around, and am thinking about doing the hood and trunk in the same to lose a little more weight.

04-27-2006, 04:32 PM
I'm guessing you are factoring in a compression bump then?
What sort of hp #s ru looking for?

You might have to do rear hub/halfshafts if its around 200ish. I aready know you can get 175 on trip SUs with a streetable cam - saw a car setup that way, pretty nice. Fresh engine, no real upgrades, runs great.

No idea about the power from the pri mikunis/keihins. Love to see a dyno sheet if you do get them.

The od box is marginal if you get to that sort of power, even if you have the dolomite conversion. I went with the hvda/w58 for just that reason. I actually wanted to o/d, but it just wasnt happening.

I'm sure you already factored all this, but I thought I'd mention it.

Oh I looked at the Williams book. He talks about oversize, but I can't see a reference to the Mazda pistons. He does talk about resleeving the block after you centre the bores. Looks like a ton of hassle. I dont have a scanner here so can't send you a copy (it is on p110 in "improve" if anyone else can oblige).

Good luck.
Alan

Kurtis
04-27-2006, 10:08 PM
Raymond,

How far along are you with this beast anyway? It's starting to sound pretty interesting. I need to plan a trip down your way sometime and check it out.

michalotti_tr
04-28-2006, 07:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you are factoring in a compression bump then?
What sort of hp #s ru looking for?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, with either engine I plan to bump it up to 10:1 compression - for the TR engine I'm shooting for 175/200, with the Toy engine I'm hoping I can squeeze a bit more than that out of it

[ QUOTE ]
You might have to do rear hub/halfshafts if its around 200ish. I aready know you can get 175 on trip SUs with a streetable cam - saw a car setup that way, pretty nice. Fresh engine, no real upgrades, runs great.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought about that, and was happy to see the one you had developed - it's on my wish list!/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
No idea about the power from the pri mikunis/keihins. Love to see a dyno sheet if you do get them.

The od box is marginal if you get to that sort of power, even if you have the dolomite conversion. I went with the hvda/w58 for just that reason. I actually wanted to o/d, but it just wasnt happening.

I'm sure you already factored all this, but I thought I'd mention it.

[/ QUOTE ]

All good points, and I'm glad you brought them up - I brought up the topic to get this type of feedback, not just for myself but for anyone else thinking along these lines. If I can do more than drool over the PRI setup, I'll be glad to do dyno comparisons. I had been thinking the original tranny would be fine if I did the TR 6cyl, but if I get it up to 200hp, maybe I need to reconsider.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh I looked at the Williams book. He talks about oversize, but I can't see a reference to the Mazda pistons. He does talk about resleeving the block after you centre the bores. Looks like a ton of hassle. I dont have a scanner here so can't send you a copy (it is on p110 in "improve" if anyone else can oblige).

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate you relaying the info - one of the reasons I asked if anyone had a TR6 longblock they were willing to donate was thinking maybe an engine that was past salvaging with a normal rebore would be available for this type of experiment.

Thanks for the advice and the good wishes - Lord knows I need both! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif

michalotti_tr
04-28-2006, 07:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Raymond,

How far along are you with this beast anyway? It's starting to sound pretty interesting. I need to plan a trip down your way sometime and check it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Kurtis,

At the moment I'm trying to recover from the disaster my kids created in my garage /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif now that I've kicked them out - once that's done I've got to finish the bodywork before the work actually begins on the drivetrain. In my quest to get Chance running this year I had planned to install the 4 cyl I already have, but since that's not going to happen I thought I'd use the time to explore and nail down other drivetrain options.

You're welcome to show up - feel like cleaning out a garage to find the cars? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

Rusticus
04-28-2006, 08:05 AM
Hey Ray, BTW-good luck!

PS - another motor that I find very interesting is the new GM I6 - it's technically a truck motor, but it's 4.2L DOHC, rated at 270 HP 275 Ft/Lbs stock. Perhaps large - but definitly in charge. My crazy uncle is looking at dropping one in his '83 XJ6.

https://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_010424.htm

michalotti_tr
04-28-2006, 08:25 AM
Thanks Rusty (you don't mind if I call you Rusty?)

I saw the GM 6, and admit it looks interesting, but if I remember the dimensions correctly it would be a tough fit in a TR - They actually use the same basic design to produce a 4 and 5 cyl version as well!

04-28-2006, 12:18 PM
A couple of other points 4U - as you know the diff is going to be marginal at (say) 200hp. You might want to consider strengthening the mounts when you pull it if you do the LSD. I put (or actually paid to have put) a ton of extra metal in there.

Also think about con-rods if you start an upgrade for that sort of power (and nitriding/cryoing the crank and and and).

A couple of alternative suggestions I'd offer would be to consider either a supercharger conversion or go to tbi.

Both are going to be around the price of the PRI offering, and offer some flexibility for extra oomph.

You could even (if you are feeling adventurous) combine the two, but you'll have some work to do on the fuel delivery system. You do have the potential for really big power then, while still keeping a "stock" TR6 engine.

I'm not trying to talk you out of carbs by any means - I meant it when I said I wanted to see dyno #s for them, I'm just trying to give you a couple of other considerations.

michalotti_tr
04-28-2006, 12:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A couple of other points 4U - as you know the diff is going to be marginal at (say) 200hp. You might want to consider strengthening the mounts when you pull it if you do the LSD. I put (or actually paid to have put) a ton of extra metal in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed - I think that boxing in the diff mounts is something that should be done regardless - just like strengthening the front suspension mounts

[ QUOTE ]
Also think about con-rods if you start an upgrade for that sort of power (and nitriding/cryoing the crank and and and).

[/ QUOTE ]
Very true, not to mention another 'must fix' in my opinion - thrust washer modification. The fix I think I'd use in the TR motor is a combination: Scott Helm's alloy washers along with a groove cut in the main bearing cap to accomodate a second thrust washer.

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of alternative suggestions I'd offer would be to consider either a supercharger conversion or go to tbi.

Both are going to be around the price of the PRI offering, and offer some flexibility for extra oomph.

You could even (if you are feeling adventurous) combine the two, but you'll have some work to do on the fuel delivery system. You do have the potential for really big power then, while still keeping a "stock" TR6 engine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whew, we are talking big bucks now! I understand that Moss' supercharger setup for the TR engine is almost ready and it sure looks tempting. I'll even admit to being drawn to Rick Patton's TBI injection system - that's a real sleeper system!

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to talk you out of carbs by any means - I meant it when I said I wanted to see dyno #s for them, I'm just trying to give you a couple of other considerations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, and there are so many options out there when you start looking at this. You've made many good points, and I appreciate your input

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

04-28-2006, 01:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Whew, we are talking big bucks now! I understand that Moss' supercharger setup for the TR engine is almost ready and it sure looks tempting. I'll even admit to being drawn to Rick Patton's TBI injection system - that's a real sleeper system!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was actually talking about the Vespertino s/c setup. Draw through 2" SU and an M62 (the old style rather than the newer MP62) that bolts onto the intake manifold. Should come in at less than the 2k for the 6-pack from PRI and be an afternoon to swap back to stock.

I understand Moss went with the same basic design.

michalotti_tr
04-28-2006, 01:12 PM
I hadn't heard of that one - please tell me more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

04-28-2006, 01:23 PM
Mitch Seff has it on his car.

https://www.triumphowners.com/registry.cgi?sectionID=111014&vehicleID=384

or

https://www.angelfire.com/ny5/trpictures/

Sal Vespertinos phone/email is 718-231-5084, salva57@optonline.net

I swapped a couple of emails with him about his kit last year before deciding that I wanted to go a bit further. He's in the Bronx, seemed like a nice guy from what I could tell, but as I said I only swapped a couple of emails with him - ymmv...

michalotti_tr
04-28-2006, 01:54 PM
Thanks, I'll check into it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TR4nut
04-28-2006, 02:15 PM
A friend sent me a sneak pic of the Moss supercharger setup, attached is a pic of what I think the first test version.

michalotti_tr
04-28-2006, 02:26 PM
Great pic Randy, thanks for sharing it with us! That sure looks like a nice setup.


BTW, I got a response from the Australian guy who had the Mazda E5 conversion done and he's put me in touch with the shop that did the work. Apparently they sell the pistons and rods as a set (because of the machining required on them) I'll keep everyone updated on what I find out.

michalotti_tr
05-01-2006, 09:53 AM
Update: Still no response from the Australian firm that specializes in the Mazda E5 conversion, but if anyone is interested in contacting them they are Greg Tunstall Mechanical in Queensland and their website is https://users.bigpond.com/GTMech/ If I do hear from them, I'll pass on anything I can find out.

bobh
05-01-2006, 05:24 PM
Ray,
I checked the Williams book. Alana is correct,, he does not mention the Mazda pistons. I must have combined the concerns about wall thickness for Mazda pistons with Williams' comments about needing to recenter the bores for a large overbore. Both of which need to be taken into consideration.
BOBH

michalotti_tr
05-02-2006, 07:30 AM
Thanks for double-checking for me Bob. I was thinking that I might get around those concerns by sleeving the engine, do you think this would be a good approach? Of course, this is all theory at the moment because I have yet to pick up a TR6 engine - or hear back from the Australian company that supposedly specializes in the conversion.

bobh
05-02-2006, 11:56 AM
Ray,
I don't have the expertise to say one way or the other. Based on my reading and research on other engines I can tell you that some engines vary from engine to engine on the centerline of their cylinders. The problem is usually attributed to core shift during the casting process. When this happens the centerline of the material is slightly offset from the centerline of the bore. This creates a cylinder wall that can be thinner on one side than on the opposite side. This is where it would be helpful to hear from the fellas down under. They should have a better idea of the consistancy in the TR6 block castings.
Once you get some feedback from them, you can decide if sectioning a spare block will give you an accurate picture of these blocks in general.
An option is to have the block tested to determine the amount of material available for your overbore. I believe the correct method of testing is to use ultra sound. Check with your machine shop.
If I can get some time on the computer tonight I'll see if I can scan the section from Williams' book.

michalotti_tr
05-02-2006, 01:10 PM
Makes sense. I still hope to hear from the boys down under, but in the meanwhile I have found out that PAECO offers a stroker kit that increases displacement from 2496cc to 2773cc and consists of a .060" overbore and an increase in stroke of .250" - which sounds like they may be doing the same thing, but I haven't talked to them directly yet. I don't know anything about the company, does anyone here have any reccomendations?

05-02-2006, 01:26 PM
you saw the revington +.110" pistons right?

the problem with all this is that you are still talking relatively modest displacement improvements (about 10%), and the cost seems to be escalating disproportionately. The kit is 2k, then you are looking at machine work. You'll likely need to do the top end at the same time.

OK, with a compression boost and a triple carb setup you ought to be able to pull out decent power, but I still think you'll get more for less effort going to forced induction.

Oh and I remembered this from a few days ago - I know nothing about the place personally, I just downloaded their catalog...

https://www.britishcarforum.com/ubbthread...true#Post200589 (https://www.britishcarforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=200589&Searchp age=1&Main=200344&Words=paeco&topic=&Search=true#P ost200589)

michalotti_tr
05-02-2006, 02:34 PM
I did see those, but like you thought the cost outweighed the benefit - which seems to be the case with the Mazda E5 conversion (if that's what Paeco is doing). For that kind of money I could do the supercharger or even get a complete Toy motor and drop it in.

But it's doing this kind of research that allows a person to make an informed, intellegent decision, instead of a gut reaction. You still have to weigh intangibles such as heritage and if you're trying to preserve some form of originality, but having a clear idea what each possible route will cost helps no matter what the final decision is.

05-02-2006, 02:59 PM
Hey, don't get the wrong idea here. I'm not knocking you - good luck whatever you choose to do. It's your car, and so its your choice.

It just seemed like a lot of money for relatively little gain. Given the amount I've spent on my TR6 I'm the last person that should be bleating about cost/benefit though, so perhaps I'll just shut up...

michalotti_tr
05-03-2006, 08:31 AM
I didn't take it as you knocking my idea - I was looking for feedback and that's exactly what everyone has given me. I find I spend a lot more time thinking and talking about what I'm going to do then it actually takes me to do it, but that process helps me avoid a lot of bad or poorly-thought-out work. I know the people on this list have probably done or thought about anything I could come up with, so why shouldn't I try to draw on that experience?

michalotti_tr
05-03-2006, 03:21 PM
Ok, this is what I've been able to glean from the Internet so far:

The Mazda E5 conversion is accomplished by boring the cylinders .110" oversize and using .020" oversize E5 pistons to achieve the 2.7L. The bores are NOT recentered for this conversion, but I've been unable to get an answer as to the how thin cylinder walls are at this point. (no response from the Australian firm that does the conversion) The one person I was able to find that had the conversion done did not report any issues.

I also found out that Paeco does a 2.7L conversion by using the largest oversize piston (.060") and increasing the stroke .250" I'm not sure what effect this increase would have on a engine that is already 'oversquare'.

Since I have not aquired a test TR6 engine yet, I do not see my being able to contribute anything further for the time being.

I want to once again thank everyone for their input, and hope this research project has been useful - or at least entertaining /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif

hondo402000
05-03-2006, 04:23 PM
I have a set of triple mikunis from PRI I will sell you if your interested?

ljanssen
05-03-2006, 07:10 PM
Personally I'm a big believer in forced induction. 205 HP at the rear wheels costing less than a set of webers is hard to argue with. More information available at:

www.turbo-tr6.info (https://www.turbo-tr6.info)

Hope this helps
Lee

05-04-2006, 05:27 AM
I realize that this might be a little off point, but do any of you out there get the distinct feeling when researching the availability of Triumph conversions from Down Under that these guys might have had a hand in the making of the movie Mad Max. I just have a vison of Mel Gibson and a squadron of bizarro Holdens with blowers and pipes sticking out everywhere. I have a friend that just returned from a three week stay in Australia and she said that they are more civilized than we are but I just can't erase that vision of Mel standing in the road with his sawed-off shotgun and his cool winged leather boots looking ever the crazyman. Pardon me Australia, we in Louisiana still are envisioned as riding alligators and eating chitterlings. It's early and I ate some bad sushi last night.


Bill

michalotti_tr
05-04-2006, 07:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have a set of triple mikunis from PRI I will sell you if your interested?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't mind me asking, why have you decided against using them? You're actually the first person I've heard of who's bought them for a Triumph, I'd love to hear your insights and experiences.

michalotti_tr
05-04-2006, 08:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I'm a big believer in forced induction. 205 HP at the rear wheels costing less than a set of webers is hard to argue with. More information available at:

www.turbo-tr6.info (https://www.turbo-tr6.info)

Hope this helps
Lee

[/ QUOTE ]

Always lot's of great information on your website Lee, and I do love your turbo conversion! I see you've added info on the Corvair hub modification, how are you liking that?

michalotti_tr
05-16-2006, 08:17 AM
Latest update for those who are interested - I finally heard back from the Australian company that does the Mazda conversion and I am quoting the email below:
[ QUOTE ]

Raymond,

Yes we do these conversions, however std E5(or E3) Mazda pistons are proving hard to get,
and you need 3 sets to do 2 x 6cyls, and they come from different piston makers, so we
have to match the sets for the best effect.

Basically we go from a pressed (Mazda)gudgeon to a floating one(Triumph), this requires a
pair of circlips and machined grooves together with custom made little ends, On my
Reckoning for the run of mill conversions, with a set of rods, resized and all assembled
would set you back about US$500 plus about US$50 in postage, Is this still attractive?

Some late news! ..... In speaking to our machinist today he says that the above are
good for road cars and a bit of club work, for racing you really need to use the pistons
for the turbo charged cars, much pricier, and with you being so far away I would prefer to
send you these, pricing on these will however take a little time, bear with us.

Other Bits,
You need special head gaskets with bigger cylinder area, these are US$100 each.

Early blocks have harder cast iron, and are preferable, late heads are best as they flow better.
(We have also done conversions using Mazda pistons at +.020ins and +.040ins as the stds
become hard to get, sometimes this leads to resleeving as the cylinder wall fails, over
here it is no problem as we have found a number of engines re-sleeved by the Factory!,
so if can you get this done over there, you can go even bigger)

Here we need to keep the compression ratio at around 9.5:1 to run on our 98RON fuel,
and while I don't know the fuel RON at your place, you need to consider it when rebuilding,
especially with the 1st mentioned piston set, as even intermittant knocking will
smash the lands off the pistons!

(I'm sending this now as I'm still waiting on our engine rebuilder to come back with
pricing, he is not known for his speed, however his work is top shelf, so we wait!)

regards,
Steve Rowland


[/ QUOTE ]

So, anyone got a wore-out 6 they'd be willing to donate for an experimental buildup? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif