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DavidApp
07-16-2019, 09:59 AM
I have a reproduction grille in my TR3A and an original radiator with the crank hole.

The car tends to run at an indicated 200 and will rise a bit in stop and go traffic but drops back to 200 when I get moving.

The radiator was flow checked before I installed it, I do have the cardboard deflector fitted and I am driving in Georgia where it is about 80 to 90 when I am driving.

The openings in my reproduction grill are 0.51" by 2.85" I have seen a post somewhere that said the original grill had larger openings. About 20% more open area.
Has anyone got any info to support the idea that this could be one reason for higher temps in some cars?
The Roadster Factory grille has openings that measure 0.61" by 2.95"

Anyone added a deflector/scoop at the bottom of the radiator to get more air into the area of the radiator that is shielded by the lower part of the apron?

I want to keep the crank hole if at all possible.

Was thinking maybe Wizzard made a crank hole rad but they said not possible.

David

TuffTR250
07-16-2019, 11:16 AM
I know that Geo Hahn and I have both installed fabricated deflectors at the bottom. You may be able to find information on those through a search. It helped a little, but did not help for stop and go driving.
Bob

M_Pied_Lourd
07-16-2019, 11:17 AM
Hi David,

Yes, there are a couple of guys that run a custom bottom air deflector...Iím sure they will jump in here shortly. Have you though about switching your stock fan out for the tropical fan?

Bob must have been typing at the same time :highly_amused:

Cheers,
Tush

TR3driver
07-16-2019, 12:37 PM
FWIW, the last time I fought with overheating, the radiator shop said my radiator "flowed fine". After struggling and trying many fixes; I finally took it back and asked them to rod it out anyway. Turns out, although the tubes were open to flow, they were coated on the inside with what the shop called "mud". Probably a mixture of stop leak (I had a lot of trouble in the past with cracks in the top tank), rust and water deposits.

When they finally did get the rods forced through all the tubes, a half dozen or so leaks sprouted, so I had them re-core it. I did not opt for the crank hole, but I could have. The re-core solved all my cooling problems, like magic. (Of course, by then I had done a lot of other changes, which I didn't remove.) The result actually holds temperature quite a bit better than my modern cars do!

I suspect (but don't know) that adding the crank hole is a lot easier with a brass radiator than aluminum. I've been told that aluminum radiators can't be repaired at all; and to add the crank hole basically requires cutting some tubes and soldering them shut.

TomMull
07-16-2019, 01:04 PM
It would seem that the size of the grille openings would make a difference, and Standard Triumph thought so also and fabricated larger slots into the grilles on some of their works cars. I don't know if anyone is reproducing those but there might be a market for them if someone did.
http://www.tr3a.info/FAQ_grill.html
Note also that 200 seems a bit hot if that is accurate. Does it run lower on cooler days or nights? If so you might try a colder thermostat.
Tom

Geo Hahn
07-16-2019, 02:12 PM
This photo shows the repro and an original grille on the same car. OPenings on the original are larger, especially noticeable around the corners and around the crank hole.

https://i.imgur.com/gYHk5kg.jpg

In the top photo you can just see the plywood air dam that I used - no proof that it helped but no harm either.


It would seem that the size of the grille openings would make a difference, and Standard Triumph thought so also...

Bob Schaller thought so too. Crossing Texas to get to the 1987 TRA Meet in Ohio he finally hacked a big hole in his car's grille to improve cooling.

https://i.imgur.com/pzLp9oU.jpg

Of course he was pulling a TRailer.

DavidApp
07-16-2019, 02:43 PM
Thank you.

That was the post that got me thinking about grille openings but I do not think I saw the factory team mod.

I do need to do some more testing. IR thermometer to check the gauge for a start.
I have not driven much in cooler weather or at night yet.

I am running The Roadster Factory Yellow fan.

Looking at the rad bottom tank protector plate it looks like a good area to mount a deflector.

David


It would seem that the size of the grille openings would make a difference, and Standard Triumph thought so also and fabricated larger slots into the grilles on some of their works cars. I don't know if anyone is reproducing those but there might be a market for them if someone did.
http://www.tr3a.info/FAQ_grill.html
Note also that 200 seems a bit hot if that is accurate. Does it run lower on cooler days or nights? If so you might try a colder thermostat.
Tom

DavidApp
07-16-2019, 02:57 PM
The Wizzard guy said they could not weld up the tubes like you do on a brass radiator but they did do a few radiators with crank holes by extending the bottom tank up a bit and putting a hole in the tank.
Do not think that would help on the TR as there is so much of the tubes below the crank hole location.

One of my ideas is to have 2 tube areas with a gap in the middle wide enough for the crank.

I hate it when people say "Can't be done" Had a reputation at work for looking for ways to get it done.
One boss use to say "Nothing that Time and Money won't fix" I worked in a Mechanical development department and sometimes we spent lots of time and money but usually got it done. Had some costly failures.

David

groupdeville
07-16-2019, 08:05 PM
You might also try looking for an original AMCO aftermarket "Vista Grille", which has a reputation for flowing air well because of having round tubes that are spaced well apart from each other. The Vista Grille looks non-stock, however - and some prefer its appearance to the cheap-ish factory stamped aluminum grille.

Marvin Gruber
07-16-2019, 11:13 PM
The aftermarket grill slats are narrower than the original grill but willing to say that would be not enough blockage to interfere with cooling for normal driving. I would consentrate on the radiator. Some folks will agrue with me but run it with out a thermostat for a few miles and see how it does. If it runs much cooler then you know you have radiator problem. You can also change up timing to see if that helps.
Marv

Graham H
07-17-2019, 07:30 AM
Hi David,

If the temp goes up in stop and start traffic and then comes down to 200 at normal driving it would seem your cooling system is working ok but the thermostat is what is keeping the temp at 200., I would try a cooler thermostat.

Graham

DavidApp
07-17-2019, 09:22 AM
Hello Graham

I will have to check to see what thermostat I have in there now. I did do the partial bypass blockage mod.

David

sp53
07-17-2019, 09:50 AM
What I did that made a difference in cooling off the car was I had the radiator record, tropical fan, and a sleeved thermostat. Since then the car rarely goes over 185; it has to be a hot July day and I am stuck in traffic to go over 185 and it comes down quick when I get moving. If I am driving in the mountains in winter and going downhill too much, the car gets too good and dies.

Anyways, a tr3 is a difficult car to keep cool in traffic in summer. If I lived in the South, I would be tempted to run without a thermostat. I know some good professional mechanics that would say a thermostat balances the temperature evenly throughout the motor so the front is not cooler than the back of the engine, probably correct. But, a tr3 is different fish IMHO. In your case, I would run it without a grill to experiment a little. Then if nothing happens take the thermostat out and see what happens. Plus if I had a nice original radiator, I would set that off to the side and perhaps pony the 250.00 for the wizard delivered and see what that does.

I just have a special place in my heart for original stuff. Then if you found it was the radiator, I would look for a real quality guy to pull the top tank and maybe the bottom off the original radiator and rod it out. Thing is-- he is going to probably want 180.00 to rod it.

sp53
07-17-2019, 10:01 AM
Forgot this
The rodding out is a maybe also because the radiators are 60 years old and some of those plugged channels are plugged tight and will break before they become unplugged, and if that is the case you have the wizard to fall back on because you are probably never going to sell the car, and you will have better more accurate information.
steve

TR3driver
07-17-2019, 10:24 AM
Before I got too excited about the 200F part, I'd want to double or triple check that the gauge is accurate. Those old mechanical gauges often read high, especially if the engine has ever been overheated.

Also worth noting that non-contact ("laser") thermometers can be wildly inaccurate when shooting aluminum. You'll get a much better reading from cast iron or a painted surface. If you must shoot aluminum, put a sticker on it first and shoot the sticker. Or paint will work too.

But if it stayed at 200F indicated, and didn't creep up in traffic, I'd call that good enough and let it be.

Oh yeah, the larger grill slots were actually a production modification as well. It appears that the prints somehow didn't survive, as reproduction grills are made to the earlier pattern, but the factory definitely recognized the problem. http://www.tr3a.info/FAQ_grill.html

Geo Hahn
07-17-2019, 01:59 PM
...Also worth noting that non-contact ("laser") thermometers can be wildly inaccurate when shooting aluminum. You'll get a much better reading from cast iron or a painted surface. If you must shoot aluminum, put a sticker on it first and shoot the sticker. Or paint will work too...]

The flat-black painted target on my car with an aluminum intake manifold:

https://i.imgur.com/tWLacd3.jpg

And I agree - triple check. That is an LCD temp strip next to the target. My gauge seems fine -- 'trust but verify' as the guy said.

DavidApp
07-17-2019, 03:04 PM
Hello Geo

On vacation at the moment so I can't do any checks.

I like the Temperature strip and the target. Will have to get that on first to get some accurate info.

The gauge is a modern mechanical copy of the TR gauge.

David

DavidApp
07-20-2019, 11:47 PM
Went for a run this morning while the temperature was about 70 The car stayed about 2/3 the way between the 185 mark and the next line to the right. On the way home later in the day when the temperature had gone up to the mid 90s the car was running much closer to the line between 185 and 230.
Used an IR temp gauge when got home and shot the brass nut that holds the temp bulb in the thermostat housing and got 190.

David

TR3driver
07-21-2019, 03:50 AM
And what did the gauge read when your IR gun said 190?

DavidApp
07-21-2019, 09:14 AM
Hello Randall

Sorry should have included that piece of info.

It was on the line between 185 and 230.

Davd

CJD
07-21-2019, 09:45 AM
David...you have your car on the road but haven't posted pics of the finished girl!?! Let's see her!

TR3driver
07-21-2019, 10:08 AM
So that says your gauge does read kind of high. 190F at the bulb on a hot day sounds entirely reasonable to me, as does slightly less than that on a cooler day.

I think your only problem is your cheap repro gauge.


Hello Randall

Sorry should have included that piece of info.

It was on the line between 185 and 230.

Davd

sp53
07-21-2019, 10:31 AM
sounds like it

DavidApp
07-21-2019, 10:39 PM
It may be a repro but it was not cheap. It is better than the gauge that came with the car kit. That was a mismatched electric gauge.

David


So that says your gauge does read kind of high. 190F at the bulb on a hot day sounds entirely reasonable to me, as does slightly less than that on a cooler day.

I think your only problem is your cheap repro gauge.

DavidApp
07-21-2019, 10:54 PM
Sorry for that omission.

I had intended to post some photos but dd not have any with my good camera,

David
If they are not enlarged and centered it is because it did not work this evening.

5975359754597555975659757


David...you have your car on the road but haven't posted pics of the finished girl!?! Let's see her!

sp53
07-22-2019, 11:41 AM
David the car looks great and very original. I must be in a controversial spirit and suggest trying a different gauge. It could easily be gauge. I bought a bordon gas tub gauge a few years ago at the corner auto parts store, and I will bet they are line that fit in the dash and the bulb fit into the housing. The gauge was right on, so I guess a second opinion is what I am saying.

TomMull
07-22-2019, 12:26 PM
Perhaps off base but I had a bit of temp gauge creeping up in hotter weather, never a problem but a little unsettling. I found an original bellows thermostat on line and installed it, not so much as a cure but simply because I had the thermostat. It still has the original 60 year old gauge. Problem was reduced to the point that I almost never look at the gauge. Of course I did other stuff also, changed coolant, hoses and backyard radiator flush too. So the thermostat might not have been responsible for the improvement.
Tom

mt10flyer
07-22-2019, 04:39 PM
I work at an elevation of 4400' and live at 6000' in the Sierra's. Stirring up a kerfluffle here I know, but these cars were NOT designed for this service. Going home up the mountain was not fun. Everything I tried with the original equipment failed. Whether or not the gauge was accurate was immaterial, because the car lets you know it is running hot. It gets a certain smell and feel.

I installed the below and have had no problems since. Just sayin.'

https://wizardcooling.com/1953-1965-triumph-tr2-tr3-aluminum-radiator-with-11-fan/?gclid=CN2GydCa5tMCFY22wAod9AoHTg

(https://wizardcooling.com/1953-1965-triumph-tr2-tr3-aluminum-radiator-with-11-fan/?gclid=CN2GydCa5tMCFY22wAod9AoHTg)

Geo Hahn
07-22-2019, 08:42 PM
I work at an elevation of 4400' and live at 6000' in the Sierra's... these cars were NOT designed for this service...

That has not been my experience. I routinely drove my TR3A back and forth between Tucson (2700') and Mt Lemmon (9000') w/o any cooling issues. I still drive my TR4 that route at least once a week including tomorrow when it will be 100į+. The TR3 had a re-cored radiator with the crank hole, the TR4 has its original radiator.

TR3driver
07-22-2019, 11:48 PM
Not really relevant, but I had to share this photo of my late friend Fred Thomas. Fred's home was roughly 20' above MSL
https://i.imgur.com/CNa9HVk.jpg

GilsTR
07-22-2019, 11:55 PM
The Wizard Aluminum Radiator solved my overheating issues
on the 100+ degree Summer days. The other day while driving
up the hill towards the coast I got stuck behind a big rig....
and the temp gauge climbed from 185.... to 190.
Happy Camper!

Gil. NoCal

Geo Hahn
07-23-2019, 07:59 PM
Not really relevant, but I had to share this photo of my late friend Fred Thomas...

I love mountan pass photos (and photos with Fred). So if Fred's diff had leaked it would go to the Atlantic and if the radiator leaked it was bound for the Pacific?

https://i.imgur.com/ist7rY4.jpg

DavidApp
07-23-2019, 11:21 PM
Iconic profile.

David

Jim_Stevens
07-26-2019, 03:54 PM
You might also try looking for an original AMCO aftermarket "Vista Grille", which has a reputation for flowing air well because of having round tubes that are spaced well apart from each other. The Vista Grille looks non-stock, however - and some prefer its appearance to the cheap-ish factory stamped aluminum grille.
Thatís what I did! They only occasionally show up on eBay. There is a guy making new ones, but theyíre not quite the same as the AMCOs.

Jim_Stevens
07-26-2019, 03:57 PM
Not really relevant, but I had to share this photo of my late friend Fred Thomas. Fred's home was roughly 20' above MSL
https://i.imgur.com/CNa9HVk.jpg
Boy, that was one cherry car. He opened his garage up to me when I just bought the car, and now mine has a few of his bits in it!

DavidApp
08-07-2019, 10:23 PM
Having bought an electric temp gauge to see what the actual temperature is against my mechanical gauge I thought I better verify the new gauge is accurate first. So I wired the gauge up out of the car and got a pot of hot water and my oven thermometer as a comparison. There was 20 degrees difference so I got my grill thermometer to add to the mix. and got a third temperature.
So I put a pot of water on the stove and set it to boil. Should be 212 degrees right?. My oven thermometer showed 238 degrees and my grill thermometer had 212.
I am going to get the bulb out of the thermostat housing in the morning and test it along side the grill thermometer to see how far out the gauge is in the car.

The electric gauge is going on the tractor. That has not had a working gauge in 30 years so a few degrees off will not matter.

Who would have thought an oven thermometer would be so far off?

David

TR3driver
08-08-2019, 08:02 AM
Having 3 thermometers is kind of like having 3 watches; you never know which one is right!

212F is pure water at sea level, but what you get out of the faucet isn't pure, and relatively few people live at sea level. Where I am at the moment (about 900ft above MSL), it boils at about 210.3F. I always thought water from an reverse-osmosis water filter was pretty good, until I tried using it in my CPAP humidifer and discovered how much crud it left behind.

NutmegCT
08-08-2019, 08:27 AM
Last summer I bought three digital thermometers, similar to:

59955

You guessed it. Each gave a slightly different reading (two or three degrees difference) when placed at the same time into one glass of hot water. Even gave different readings when placed side by side on the living room carpet.

And just for fun, your car coolant's temperature gauge reading is probably just an "average" of the varying temps of the coolant as it passes by.

ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμβαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ.

Or words to that effect ...

OK - back to my cave.
Tom M.

TomMull
08-08-2019, 08:28 AM
I'd say your test will work fine. Around Macon the correction for altitude will most likely be less than a degree F and the correction for cruddy water couldn't be much more than that and neither discernible on your dash gauge. Tom

sp53
08-08-2019, 11:54 AM
Yeh establishing a data point or base line is what you want; that way you can calibrate the off gauge by memory. I was thinking you might be able to just loosen the bulb on the car gauge and lower it down some rather pulling it out of the car, and get a pot or old can you could bend a little and put your grill thermometer if it portable along with some hot water about 208F, and see what the 2 gauges say together.

DavidApp
08-08-2019, 12:59 PM
That is exactly what I plan to do. I have enough slack having slipped the clips on the fuel line back to the back of the engine.

Keep getting distracted by work related texts.

David

DavidApp
08-09-2019, 11:22 PM
Update.

The gauge in the car is reading within a few degrees of the Grill thermometer which was the one that got boiling water correct. So I am running just below 200 degrees in the Georgia heat.

David

Graham H
08-10-2019, 07:22 AM
Hi David,

If all your cooling system is working ok you should be able to get it to run at 185, you may need to put in a cooler thermostat.

Graham

sp53
08-10-2019, 11:58 AM
My experience has been the engine is happier running at 185. Once my car starts to get close to 200, like sitting traffic the engine seems agitated. Does the engine run at 200 driving on an open road?

Graham H
08-11-2019, 05:55 AM
The thermostat I am using is a Tridon TT2000-170 Highflow with a reducer in the bypass house, I tried the skirted thermostat from Moss, very expensive but it ran too hot so I took it out and fitted the Tridon and under normal driving conditions the temp sites on the 8 of 185.

Graham

DavidApp
08-19-2019, 04:19 PM
Got a 160 degree thermostat and fitted it today. Not taken the TR out yet to see if that has helped.

I did remove what I think may be a 195 degree thermostat.

David

60105

groupdeville
08-19-2019, 06:33 PM
+1 on the Tridon thermostat mentioned above. The 170 degree unit works well for me also. Ordered mine from an outfit called "Sparesbox" in Australia, and had it by airmail in a few days. Why don't TRF, Moss, and the other suppliers carry these? When the Tridon thermostat opens, the area of the opening is larger than a stock unit and permits greater coolant flow through the radiator, without the downside effects of running without a thermostat at all. The increased opening area of the Tridon unit was measured and calculated by a friend, who found it to be approximately 30% larger than the opening area of a stock Triumph-size thermostat.

+1 also on the need to restrict the bypass hose opening. It's been a warm-climate Triumph recommendation for many years, and has worked well for me in many TRs and Morgans over the past 30 or 40 years.

Graham H
08-19-2019, 08:31 PM
Be interesting to see how it runes with that one David

Graham

DavidApp
08-19-2019, 09:59 PM
I do have the bypass partially blocked.

On a side note I did modify the grill a bit. Made a tool so I could gently squeeze the ribs to create slightly larger gaps. It seemed to make about a 5 degree difference. The needle stayed on the edge of the 5 of the 185 mark. The gaps are 0.62" now up from 0.51"
I have another grill that I could have used if the tool did not work.
The openings by the crank hole were not modified.

David

60120

Graham H
08-20-2019, 12:32 AM
David, that looks great what does your special tool look like?

Graham

DavidApp
08-20-2019, 01:50 PM
Here is the tool. It is just wide enough to fit the main openings. Just squeeze carefully and check the opening.

Please excuse the welding.

David

60138
60139
60140

sp53
08-20-2019, 03:57 PM
That sounds about right. Mine is in there around the 185 somewhere. Sounds like your thermostat was too hot all a long—Good News!—need some of that.

groupdeville
08-21-2019, 07:37 PM
Or, another alternative to the flat-bar stock grille is:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153612958204?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

Graham H
08-22-2019, 07:31 AM
Took me a little while to work out how your grill tool works but got it in the end, thank you David.

Graham

DavidApp
08-22-2019, 08:52 AM
Sorry should have posted a photo of it in action.

Once again the pit helped as I could sit down in front of the TR to work on the grill.

David

DavidApp
08-22-2019, 12:14 PM
Well the 160 degree thermostat fixed the problem a bit too well. I am running at 140 degrees now. So I will get a 180 thermostat as I understand the motor should run at around 180.

David

Graham H
08-22-2019, 08:51 PM
Why not try for the Tridon TT2000-170 high-flowhttps://tridon.com.au/products/Tridon/35/479/thermostats-and-gaskets/528046/thermostat-high-flow#3

DavidApp
08-22-2019, 09:01 PM
Hello Graham

I think my next step is a trip to Advance Auto or similar for a 180 degree one.
The motor seems to run at the temp . on the thermostat. The old one being a 195 one and was running just over that.

David

DavidApp
09-03-2019, 09:40 PM
I fitted the 180 degree thermostat and now the car runs at 180 to 185. So that appears to be fixed.

Thank everyone for all the suggestions and help.

David

Graham H
09-03-2019, 10:42 PM
Magic, you would have to be happy with that.

Graham

DavidApp
09-04-2019, 12:11 AM
One thing this saga has showed was the cooling system seems to work as designed. Keeps it at the temperature the thermostat is rated for. I have not been in stop and go traffic yet but even with the 195 thermostat it stayed just about 200 in traffic.

David

Jim_Stevens
09-18-2019, 12:54 PM
FYI to all, there is an Amco Vista grille on eBY right now. They donít come up too often (I think I got the last one a year or two back at least) and will need to be rechromed. Neither is cheap!

STeve 1958
09-18-2019, 01:56 PM
60568Back to the grill. I used a vise grip like this to squeeze the cross bars. Set it right and it won't over squeeze. Worked good and fast.

DavidApp
09-18-2019, 05:13 PM
I did look at that solution but was worried it may over do it.

David