PDA

View Full Version : TR2/3/3A Loosen engine



Redoakboo
04-10-2018, 10:27 AM
I have recently purchased a 1954 TR-2 long door, that has been sitting in a garage for 30 years.It actually has little or no rust. I pulled the plugs and poured some Marvel Mystery Oil into the cylinders. I would like to turn the engine over, but do not have a crank. I do not want to try it with the starter, at this early stage. The engine has had oil up to the mark, and it doesn't look that bad. Before I pull the pan and change to oil and filter I would like to try and turn the engine several times.

Any suggestions?

charleyf
04-10-2018, 12:06 PM
With the spark plugs removed and of course the transmission in neutral you may be able to put a socket on the bolt on the front of the generator and turn the engine doing that. The belt may slip some and you may need to push down on the belt to prevent that.
An alternate way is to again remove the spark plugs, put the transmission in 4th gear, lift one rear wheel off the ground and turn that wheel. This way may provide you with more leverage.

TomMull
04-10-2018, 12:40 PM
First, congratulations on your new car. Sounds like a real winner; lucky you, I'm a bit jealous.
I think the bolt that holds the front hub on, and accepts the crank handle, has a hex too, so you can put a socket on it. In my experience, if it is at all stuck, you'll be looking at a teardown soon, even if you get it to run. But you have apparently been lucky already so who knows.
Keep us posted and maybe a picture.
Tom

Geo Hahn
04-10-2018, 02:23 PM
Or... with the plugs out and with gloves on you may be able to turn the engine by just grabbing the fan, though raising the LR corner, engine in 4th and working the tire is the easiest way.

TR3driver
04-10-2018, 02:25 PM
Just grab the fan and turn it.

Another alternative, if the wheels are on, put it in 4th gear and push it.

Personally, I didn't see any point in worrying about it. When I woke my 56 from it's 30+ year nap; I figured that either the engine was OK, or it wasn't. If it was OK then spinning with the starter (with the plugs out and fresh oil in the crankcase) wasn't going to hurt anything. And if the engine wasn't OK, cranking it wouldn't damage it any worse than it already was.

Brinkerhoff
04-10-2018, 09:48 PM
They're pretty tough and will take rocking back and forth until something breaks then it should have been taken apart anyhow. I just had the pleasure of reviving a 59 TR3 that had been sitting that long and it came back to life pretty quickly after a valve adjustment , carb seals , plugs and an old Lucas Sports Coil. I ran it up at temperature for 30 minutes before I changed the oil . I think it probably appreciated the love !

CJD
04-10-2018, 11:25 PM
30 years in Florida...it’ll be hit or miss on whether the rings are locked to the cylinders. If it were in Arizona I’d give it a much better chance of freeing up. Best of luck with it...let us know how it goes!

sp53
04-11-2018, 09:35 AM
I think it matters on how you unfreeze. I would not want it to start and break something like a crank. I would pull the plugs and get a few gallons of inexpensive oil and fill the entire engine with oil until the oil runs out the spark plug holes. That will not hurt anything, just try and keep it off the valves by pulling the plugs. That way everything is soaked in oil, the timing chain, rings, rods, pistons…ect. Let that sit for a few days and then try and turn by hand or rock in 4 gear. Once the engine moves, then drain those gallons of oil out, put the correct amount of oil in with a new filter and try and start it.
steve

glemon
04-11-2018, 09:24 PM
I think it matters on how you unfreeze. I would not want it to start and break something like a crank. I would pull the plugs and get a few gallons of inexpensive oil and fill the entire engine with oil until the oil runs out the spark plug holes. That will not hurt anything, just try and keep it off the valves by pulling the plugs. That way everything is soaked in oil, the timing chain, rings, rods, pistons…ect. Let that sit for a few days and then try and turn by hand or rock in 4 gear. Once the engine moves, then drain those gallons of oil out, put the correct amount of oil in with a new filter and try and start it.
steve

And be prepared for a lot of smoke! (Which you would likely get if you filled it with oil or not after sitting that long). I will also second the motion that TR 4 cylinders are robust motors, and like to run if you give them half a chance.

Marvin Gruber
04-12-2018, 08:03 AM
Grab the fan and see it if will turn by hand, if it does, put a little MM oil in cylinders and motor over. If not, then put more oil in cylinders and do the above recomendations. Who knows you might get lucky. Its 50/50 at best. Just an engine, they are rebuilt everyday.
Marv

groupdeville
04-12-2018, 10:06 AM
If the engine is stuck (or nearly so) one approach that dates from the twenties (or before) is to remove the starter motor and lever on the teeth of the ring gear with a very large screwdriver or other similar tool. Using the opening in the engine block casting as a fulcrum point, you should have enough to move the engine a little bit at a time. The trick is to work the engine back and forth in opposite rotational directions, while gradually increasing the amount you turn the engine each time. Ring gear teeth are usually sturdy enough to take this method without damage.

This assumes that you've already pulled the spark plugs, put in lots of oil or penetrating agent (liquid wrench, kroil, marvel mystery oil, atf, etc.) and let the engine sit for a while. Pull the valve cover and fully oil the valve gear as well. Grabbing the fan or putting a wrench on the crankshaft pulley bolt should be tried first (but still after soaking), because they're good first tests and easier than levering through the starter hole. Hand cranks work well also.

Keep moving and oiling the engine through the plug holes as you go to fully free-up the engine before you start it. Make sure that all valves and rocker arms are moving correctly. As others have said, be prepared for a lot of smoke when the motor first starts - both from the lubricant you've put in and from stuck piston rings.

JerryVV
04-12-2018, 10:48 AM
I think everyone is overthinking this. If it's frozen it's most likely the rings. Put some light oil in through the plug openings and let it sit for a week. Put enough in that it will soak down around the rings. With the plugs out put it in 4th gear and try rocking the car. If it moves great, if not let it soak a while longer and try again. Once it moves if it does, then pour some oil down the push rod openings to get some oil to the cam. You can pull the distributer and with a rod ground to a screw driver point spin the oil pump and get oil flowing to the rocker arm assembly, that will get oil to the crank as well. Once that's done spin the engine with the starter, blow out the oil from the cylinders, replace the plugs and with some fresh fuel try to start it.
I'd never fill the engine full with oil, that's wasteful, messy and makes very little sense. You might also cause hydro-lock which would not be good.
So I've added my 2 cents worth, but it's a simple exercise.

Redoakboo
04-12-2018, 01:22 PM
Thanks Guys,

Think I will try a socket on the front bolt, as have no crank. I am still trying to get the left rear brake drum off, anybody have a good suggestion? Couldn't find a puller large enough to hook it up. Have beat with sledge hammer agains't a oak block. Nothing!

Dick

TRMark
04-12-2018, 01:39 PM
Did you back off the brake adjuster?

TR3driver
04-12-2018, 02:18 PM
Puller just makes things worse, the shoes spread apart when pulled out against the spring.

As noted, make sure the adjuster is backed off (square head on backing plate, roughly opposite from where hydraulic line attaches). An 8 point socket or one of the special square wrenches is a good idea; they round easily with just an open end wrench.

If it still won't come off, I'd go back to the BFH, but skip the wood. Hit the drum on the cylindrical portion, as though you were hitting the friction surface of the shoes. Start with medium blows all around, then if that doesn't do it, try again with all you've got. At some point, you'll have to break the drum anyway; but in my experience they are hard to break that way and you can usually drive the shoes and pistons in far enough to get the drum off.
Obviously, you have to avoid hitting an edge, though. Just the part shaped like a barrel.

CJD
04-12-2018, 03:02 PM
Cool thing about the long door brakes is you can undo the slave cylinders from the back of the backing plate. Once they're loose, then the shoes should fall free.

To others not familiar with the lockheed brakes...the adjustment is from a hole in the outside of the drum (wheel side). If you can't turn the drum to align the hole with the 2 adjusters...then you cannot loosen the adjuster!

TR3driver
04-12-2018, 03:40 PM
Oops, sorry, I forgot this is an early car with Lockheed (front drum) brakes. My bad.

Yet another reason to put your car details in your signature; so old farts like me don't forget and pass out bad information :D

Bob Claffie
04-12-2018, 04:00 PM
The problem with backing off the brake adjusters is that when you try to loosen the shoes the first motion of the adjuster is to tighten the shoe due to the shape of the end of the adjuster. If they are frozen or near to frozen that will make them even tighter. Even if you were able to remove the adjuster completely you would still have the small "pins" stuck in the bore of the wheel cylinder.

TRMark
04-12-2018, 04:32 PM
Ah, my mistrake. Thought it was like my TR4. Sorry. Lotsa bad advice on the internet, I just contributed.

CJD
04-12-2018, 11:11 PM
Like I said, the cool thing is that the cylinders hold the shoes. The bolts holding the cylinders go through the backplate from the back side, so you can (theoretically) remove the mounting bolts and, even if the adjusters are frozen to the cylinders, the shoes, cylinders, and drum should come off as an assembly. Of course the brake hydraulic lines have to be removed first.

sp53
04-13-2018, 10:53 AM
I learned the concept of filling the engine will oil from an old farmer 45 years ago. We were working on a 1950 Chev truck that had set in this barn for 20 years and it was in nice shape. I did what he said and got the engine free and pushed started it and drove it for a year or so. Gee I wish I still had it.

Anyways come to find out those old Chevs had these little oil throwers on each rod that actually tossed oil up to the motor. Perhaps that is one reason why he liked freeing up those engines that way, and plus bulk oil was like 2 bucks a gallon. I would like to add this old farm boy was one of the best mechanics I have ever met, even to this day. He could fix anything.

What I post is a suggestion; I would not want to damage anyone’s vehicle. I have no idea what “hydro-lock” even is, and I have done the oil filling concepts on motors that I would feel are worth the investment of a couple gallons of oil. Plus I see nothing wrong will soaking an engine that has not run in 30 year with oil, but again I have never been able to get the oil to come up to the top of an engine by running the oil pump with a drill. One thing I forgot to mention is, I would have taken the valve cover off to poor all that oil into the engine and soak the top of the engine.

Steve

TR3driver
04-13-2018, 11:59 AM
I have no idea what “hydro-lock” even is,

Generally refers to having a cylinder full of something non-compressible, like oil, water, or fuel. Not gonna be a problem with the plugs out (which is part of the reason they should always be out when starting to revive an engine from long storage).

I did actually manage to hydrolock the motor on Stag #1 once and then try to crank it with the starter. All it did was stall the starter motor. They just don't develop enough torque to damage a piston or con rod; a lot less force involved than just normal running at max power.

Where it can be a problem though is when the engine is already running at higher rpm and a cylinder suddenly sucks a slug of something. Kind of like jumping off a building, it's not the fall but the sudden stop at the end.

Redoakboo
04-13-2018, 12:55 PM
Tried the 4th gear, wheel turning and PRESTO! the engine turned over. I moved it back and forth so now know pistons are not stuck in the cylinders. I might, now, turn the starter over, plugs out, to check the compression.
I have some rust, pretty much surface stuff, I want to remove. There are so many different products and removal ways. Anyone had good success with a special product? Want to paint over, after the rust is gone.

Dick

Redoakboo
04-13-2018, 01:04 PM
The 4th gear wheel turning did the trick. I will now try to turn it over with the starter to check the compression.

Thanks Guys, for your help.

Dick

Redoakboo
04-13-2018, 01:08 PM
I am restoring a 54 TR-2 long door and have surface rust I would like to remove, before painting over with POR-15. Have any of you guys had good luck with any particular product? There is so much stuff out the ; 1 stage, 2 stage, 3 stage etc!

Dick

charleyf
04-13-2018, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=Redoakboo;
I have some rust, pretty much surface stuff, I want to remove. There are so many different products and removal ways. Anyone had good success with a special product? Want to paint over, after the rust is gone.

Dick[/QUOTE]
I used some Naval jelly from a local hardware store. Put it on with a brush, let it sit and then wiped it off with wet rags. I used two different rags to make sure that I got it all off of the metal. If the rust is deep then multiple applications are needed. But for the most part I used an air driven tool with sanding discs. Removes paint and rust and works pretty fast. This leaves a clean chemical free surface. I even sanded over most of the areas where I had used the naval jelly.

Redoakboo
04-18-2018, 07:44 AM
Put in 4th gear and turned rear wheel. Presto! turned wheel several times.

Thanks, Guys, for your help.

Dick

bnw
04-18-2018, 09:06 AM
Randall "I did actually manage to hydrolock the motor on Stag #1 once and then try to crank it with the starter. All it did was stall the starter motor. They just don't develop enough torque to damage a piston or con rod; a lot less force involved than just normal running at max power."

I was testing the injector on a Mitsubishi 4 cyl years ago by powering and grounding the injector. Injector was fine. I went to start the car. It was hydro locked and wouldn't spin over. Once I realized what I had done, I pulled the plugs and pumped out the excess gas, but it was too late. Once started, there was a sickening rod knock from the rod that bent trying to compress the gas. A complete tear down was in order. Lesson learned. You got lucky Randall! The Stag engine was stronger than the Lucas starter.