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frankfast
11-10-2017, 12:57 PM
The rear of the left side of my car is 1 1/2" lower than the right. I noticed that the rear springs seem to be made by different manufacturers because the labels and markings are different. I'm tempted to replace both but am not convinced that is the problem. Has anyone used the competition springs from Moss? I believe that they must be stiffer. Any advantage for street use?

trglory
11-10-2017, 02:40 PM
Count the number of leaves in each spring. Are they the same or are they different?

TomMull
11-10-2017, 02:51 PM
Some TR3's had lowering blocks on the right side but they only lowered by 5/16 inch or so. Your problem is most likely caused by badly mismatched springs or by broken leaves. Sometimes you have to look quite carefully to see the breaks.
Tom

Geo Hahn
11-10-2017, 05:08 PM
...Sometimes you have to look quite carefully to see the breaks.

And sometimes you can't see them at all. I found one break but when I removed the spring two more were found.

1" droop is a lot - more that I would attribute to the usual driver's side sag. Pretty sure you'll find a broken spring.

Can't comment on the Moss springs as I put on a used spring - which worked well to eliminate the sag and kept a good ride height.

DavidApp
11-11-2017, 11:36 PM
I got a pair of springs from Rimmer Bro, in UK but was not happy with the quality. The rebound clips were 1/4" + clear of the top leaf and the leaves are thicker than the drawing calls for.
I have been in contact with Mike Eaton of Eaton springs and with the TR drawing he says he can reproduce the springs as drawn including the tapered ends. But they are expensive for one set. Maybe several sets would bring the price down.

David

https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/about/

512215122251223

CJD
11-12-2017, 01:30 AM
I’ve grown perturbed with all of the vendors this year. Rimmer is into me for over $600 for seat pans that I had to send to the recycler they were so bad. I have an Ebay gas tank that was “in perfect condition with no leaks”. I fixed 3 leaks, and obviously missed more, as it is still seeping gas. I ordered a new tank from TRF, who promised the special order would be 3 weeks. 2 months later they tell me it is not available. I mean really?? 2 months to let me know they couldn’t get it??

If you can salvage a used part...do it. It’s like rolling the die with every parts order you make these days.

BobbyO
11-12-2017, 01:08 PM
John, remember what I mentioned about new tanks and the vent hole locations being all over the place. When I did my research Moss had 4 tanks in stock in Petersburg and all the vent holes were in different locations. I have plugged the vent line on the tank I received from Rimmer but don't like it because gas sprays a fine miss out the filler cap as the tank gets full. That's the only place air can now escape when filling the tank. I am going to repair an old tank and install it with the vent tube.

TFB
11-12-2017, 04:32 PM
If the only problem is gas spraying out the cap think I would enlarge the cap hole.The one in my repro cap is smaller than 1/16" no spraying.

Tom

sp53
11-12-2017, 09:50 PM
Look around more Dave I found a guy that said he would build me set springs for 150.00 each. He has a large shop and has been there since I can remember perhaps 30 years; or I can get this guy’s number and info if you want.

DavidApp
11-13-2017, 01:06 AM
His price is $399,00 per pair plus shipping so not too much more than your guy.

Right is better than cheap. He clams he can reproduce the springs exactly to drawing. Except for the material which will be better. I would supply the front bushes to insure they fit.

Not made a final decision yet but on balance good new springs must be worth more than cheap almost right springs.

David

Geo Hahn
11-13-2017, 11:20 AM
...He clams he can reproduce the springs exactly to drawing...

I know nuthin' about springs but I'll ask: Do these drawings specify the strength of the resulting springs? Or is that purely a function of the arc?

To the uneducated it would seem that 2 springs could look identical but have different spring rates and different heights under load.

sp53
11-13-2017, 11:31 AM
I have only used the old stock ones and my stash is gone, and yes the old ones from what I heard make a better ride. Randall has commented many times on how he dislikes the repos. The problem with the old ones is that they break after time, say 50 years. Every tr3 I have worked on had a broken spring plus the break is difficult to see and really cannot be fixed. I had a very talented shipyard welded try a couple of times, but they would break after a year or so. So yeh get a good set of local copycat ones and I think you will be better off---and get your money back. These guys need to try harder or get different contractors for their stuff they sell. There is that set on evil Bay with free shipping and I think 160.00, but my gut tells my one of them is broke. Another option is to just get the top spring made and clean everything up good and go with that because the top one carries all the load. I have not asked my guy about that, but it must be cheaper.
steve

frankfast
11-13-2017, 12:11 PM
Can someone explain to me how to remove the front fulcrum of the spring from the bolt (stud?). The manual says to pry the bolt out by threading a 5/16" bolt into the head of the fulcrum bolt but mine appears to be a stud welded to the frame. There is no way a 5/16" bolt will fit in the hole of the frame which has a welded boss on the tube of the frame. Is this a change in design or a home made modification? If it is a welded stud, is there enough room to slide the spring off of the stud? It looks like everything else must be removed first to allow the spring to drop before the spring can slide off of the stud.

Geo Hahn
11-13-2017, 01:12 PM
Perhaps you could post a picture of what you have as there should certainly be a bolt with a 5/16" threaded hold in the head.

The head of the bolt is shaped like a fat D -- that is, it has a flat on one side, so depending on where you look it might appear to be welded to the frame.

If you determine that you have the correct part then it is a matter of setting up with some all-thread and spacers (I used a long socket and a stack of washers) to fashion a puller.

frankfast
11-13-2017, 01:34 PM
Perhaps you could post a picture of what you have as there should certainly be a bolt with a 5/16" threaded hold in the head.

The head of the bolt is shaped like a fat D -- that is, it has a flat on one side, so depending on where you look it might appear to be welded to the frame.

If you determine that you have the correct part then it is a matter of setting up with some all-thread and spacers (I used a long socket and a stack of washers) to fashion a puller.

Is the head of the bolt hidden within the square frame tube and accessed through a hole in the frame?

CJD
11-13-2017, 02:42 PM
The head of the bolt is round and fits into a welded tube through the frame. You should have a body plug inside the car behind the seat...through which you can reach the threaded side of the bolt to drive it out. It is frequently well rusted in and reluctant to budge.

The threaded hole referenced in the manual is accessed through the body plug.

frankfast
11-13-2017, 03:15 PM
5125051251

Is this what the two ends of the bolt looks like?

Geo Hahn
11-13-2017, 05:22 PM
That's it. As mentioned, the bolt head has a flat on one side that rests against a complementary protrusion from the tube. I think I can just see the place where the two meet as indicated here:

https://i.imgur.com/6OXte6q.jpg

I am not aware of a body plug behind the seat though I have heard of some (in extreme cases) drilling a hole in the body behind the small stone guard to drive out that bolt.

I started by soaking the whole thing well for many days in PBlaster. Then uses a bottoming tap in that threaded hole to get it as clean and deep as possibly. I used regular all-thread with success though some use harder stuff (grade 8?). Maybe I was lucky but on both TRs that bolt pulled out as smoothly as a cork out of a wine bottle.

frankfast
11-13-2017, 05:41 PM
The car is on jack stands so initially I didn't get a good look at the head of the bolt until I took a picture of it. The car has no rust under it so hopefully that bolt will come out easily.

martx-5
11-13-2017, 06:52 PM
Most people can get those pins out by doing as Geo has done. Copious amounts of PB Blaster or Kroil over a several day period should loosen them enough to extract them. However, occasionally that will not work. I know that Don Elliot here on the forum has actually lifted the body up by the back enough to slide the leaf spring off the pin. If all else fails, there is the Revington TR method as shown in the link below. However, this method involves cutting the spring, and really doesn't sound any better than trying to get it out using Geo's method. But if desperate, it may work.

https://www.revingtontr.com/product/106231/name/rear-spring-eye-pin-tr2-4

CJD
11-13-2017, 07:42 PM
If you have an early body without the body plug, then the bolt will not come completely out without either lifting the body or drilling an access hole. It should come out enough to pull the spring off, though.

TexasKnucklehead
11-13-2017, 07:46 PM
OK... The front spring attachment is technically not a bolt -it's a pin. Each end of the pin is D shaped. The outboard side accepts a nut, and a washer with a D shaped hole, which is held in place by a split pin -it keeps the leaf spring/bushing on the pin. The other end of the pin fits (tightly) into a tube in the frame and is kept from rotating by a D shaped fitting at the frame. The larger end of the pin (the d shaped 'bolt' head) ends up on the inboard side of the frame but it has a threaded hole in it for removal.
(as pictured here https://mossmotors.com/rear-suspension-driveshaft-tr2-4) -your picture shows a glob of paint in the center that almost looks like a grease fitting but is actually a threaded hole.

I helped a fellow owner remove his pins because one side of his car was about 1+1/2" lower. We were able to chase the threads, install a bolt, and with a large c-clamp various spacers, and pry bars we were able to pull the pins out and replace both springs with new. One of the new springs was not made properly, and the locating pin for the axle was rearward about an inch and had to be removed and replaced a second time (the wheel rubbed on the wheel well when lowered). We installed new pins because we felt we might ruin the old ones getting them out. When we were done, we found his car still sits 1+1/2" higher on one side.

The plug on the inner rear fender referenced by John is (IMO) a misunderstanding or bad memory on his part -although I know this to be a very rare occurrence. On the earlier cars with a sloped rear shelf, there is a plug to access the forward shock bolt. That bolt is above the frame rail, and not part of the leaf spring.

Check your new springs closely and be sure the pin (or bolt) for the rear axle is located the same distance on each leaf. I would have a pair of Moss part number 320-230 before I started. While we were replacing stuff with new, we also found one of the new shackles was made incorrectly with one of the pins to large to fit into it's cover.

Good luck, I hope it goes well.

karls59tr
11-13-2017, 08:14 PM
I got a set of leaf springs from Moss a couple years ago. They look exactly like the your picture with the rebound springs 1/4+" above the top leaf. I was concerned about this myself and even posted on this forum about the issue.(try a search) I went to a spring shop and showed them the gap and they assured me that it was not an issue. I have been driving my TR3 for 2 years now and the springs are functioning as they should.

frankfast
11-13-2017, 08:29 PM
The spring on the passenger side has a label with the same part number that is in the Moss catalogue. The driver side leaf spring has a label but the print on it is gone. I'm tempted to get just one spring from Moss to see if the car levels out. But who knows if Moss is using the same manufacturer that made the existing spring. If it doesn't level I could order another so I have a matched set. If the car still is not level then the whole exercise would be a waste

sp53
11-13-2017, 09:05 PM
The bolt is on the inside and the nut is on the outside; sometime the whole bolts get stuck, but is comes apart once the bolts is free. Look at Haynes manual.
steve

CJD
11-13-2017, 10:47 PM
Yep, Steve is right...I’m wrong. Here is the hole I was referring to:

https://i.imgur.com/BswIU6f.jpg

All this time I thought is was aligned with the spring front pin. As I look at this pic, that is obviously wrong!

DavidApp
11-14-2017, 10:40 PM
This is the drawing I sent to him. Said the material he would use was not the same as called out by the drawing but would be better because steel has technology has improved in the last 50 years.

David
51272





I know nuthin' about springs but I'll ask: Do these drawings specify the strength of the resulting springs? Or is that purely a function of the arc?

To the uneducated it would seem that 2 springs could look identical but have different spring rates and different heights under load.

sp53
11-15-2017, 11:10 AM
Yeh that hole is for the shock bolt

frankfast
11-15-2017, 03:36 PM
Was able to pry the bolt out enough to get the spring off using the carpenters favorite tool - The Wonder Bar. Using a wedge on the nut side in order to get it started, I had to break the bolt free of the undercoating or whatever that black material is that was sprayed on the frame. I tried to get a 5/16 bolt into the head per manual but the coating messed up the threads and the tap I had was too long. The diagonal cross member impedes any working room, especially when laying on your back. Makes it all worthwhile.

CJD
11-15-2017, 09:20 PM
Hurray! That bolt has been torturing owners for almost 70 years. If you got it without having to lift the body, you can consider it a success!

Yeah, Steve, I am starting to think you know much more about our Triumphs than you let on!!

karls59tr
11-16-2017, 10:36 AM
Was able to pry the bolt out enough to get the spring off using the carpenters favorite tool - The Wonder Bar. Using a wedge on the nut side in order to get it started, I had to break the bolt free of the undercoating or whatever that black material is that was sprayed on the frame. I tried to get a 5/16 bolt into the head per manual but the coating messed up the threads and the tap I had was too long. The diagonal cross member impedes any working room, especially when laying on your back. Makes it all worthwhile.

What is a "Wonder Bar"?...a pry bar? That undercoating must have prevented the bolt from rusting in place. Normally you have to soak it for days in penetrating oil. I had to drill mine out.:applause:

frankfast
11-16-2017, 02:09 PM
A "Wonder Bar" is a type of pry bar. It's about 1 1/2 wide and flat, bent 90 degrees on one end and slightly curved on the other. Like a "cats paw" it is used for pulling nails. I don't know if they make them anymore. This one has to be at least forty years old.

The car was very clean under due to an eight year old renovation so the nuts and bolts came out easily. There is a hole in the frame cross member that allows the front bolt to be removed completely. The problem was that the restorer ran the fuel line through it. I was able to back the bolt out far enough to release the spring. The spring is now out of the car. It came out fairly easily but looks to be an adventure to get the new one in.

Geo Hahn
11-17-2017, 05:08 PM
...the tap I had was too long. The diagonal cross member impedes any working room,...

Isn't there a hole in that diagonal member aligned with the head of the pin specifically to allow the use of long tools (e.g. the all-thread used to pull the pin)?

frankfast
11-17-2017, 10:35 PM
Isn't there a hole in that diagonal member aligned with the head of the pin specifically to allow the use of long tools (e.g. the all-thread used to pull the pin)?

Yes, but like I mentioned in my previous post, the previous owner/restorer ran the fuel line through it so I couldn't back the bolt out completely. But I was able to remove it far enough to release the spring.

frankfast
11-20-2017, 01:21 PM
Just received the new leaf spring from Moss. I'm changing out the driver side spring only because the body on the driver side sags about 1 1/2" in the back. There is a difference between the new and the existing. There is a 1/4" space between the top leaf and the four clamps that hold the new spring together. On the existing springs, the clamps are tight around the leaves. Would anyone know the reason for this?

CJD
11-20-2017, 04:10 PM
No, I know of no reason for them to be loose. I always hammer them tight if there is any space.

DavidApp
11-22-2017, 01:42 AM
They look like this?

David
51399

frankfast
11-22-2017, 07:41 AM
Yes.

Unfortunately the new spring did not solve the problem. The body still is lower on the drivers side than the passenger side by 1 1/4". So now I'll have to take some measurements of the frame in order to see if it is tweaked or maybe the body does not sit correctly on the frame. I don't think that it can be shimmed that much to correct the difference. Something is not right.

CJD
11-22-2017, 11:18 AM
Frame twist can usually be eyeballed by looking forward along the bottom from center. You would at least be able to see over 1" of twist.

It sounds like it may be time to check the front springs...like one could have broken or a PO left the spacer out on the passenger side.

Geo Hahn
11-22-2017, 11:24 AM
1" is a lot of difference. The only times I have had a noticeable droop was a broken spring or a perished front eye bushing.


...Something is not right.

Yep. A close measurement and comparison side-to-side must surely reveal the point of difference.

frankfast
11-22-2017, 01:53 PM
The rear frame lug where the leaf spring mounts to the frame is a 1/2" lower than the passenger side. That would account for some of the 1 1/4" difference. Also I don't see pads at the attachment points of body to frame. I wonder if it's possible to loosen the attachment points in order to shim the body without removing everything. I wouldn't be able to correct the whole difference but might get an improvement.

frankfast
11-22-2017, 05:06 PM
I've decided to replace the passenger side leaf spring so that I have a matched set which is something i should have done anyway. Even though the part numbers are the same on the current springs does not mean that the manufacturers are the same since one may have been purchased eight years ago. If the problem still persists at least I know that it's not the springs.

CJD
11-22-2017, 05:56 PM
If you jack the car under the center of the differential case, does it level or remain tilted?

frankfast
11-22-2017, 07:17 PM
I always jack the frame. Is it safe to place the jack under the differential case? Will it take the weight?

CJD
11-22-2017, 09:21 PM
It will. The idea is to see if the front springs sit level when you take the rear springs out of the equation.

sp53
11-22-2017, 09:48 PM
Put a bunch of stamps on the old springs and set them by the mail box for me.

DavidApp
11-22-2017, 11:43 PM
I got a pair of the springs from Rimmer Brothers in the UK. They are both the same. One side should have 2 extra pieced of spring material.

David

51411

51410

frankfast
11-25-2017, 03:41 PM
If you jack the car under the center of the differential case, does it level or remain tilted?

I did that. The difference decreased from 1 1/4" to 1/2". I assumed from this that the second leaf spring should be replaced so I've ordered one. After taking the second spring off, I placed them inverted side by side on a bench. Although they appear to be the same part number, one appears to be the thickness of one leaf higher than the other. I'm not sure if that's enough to cause the car to sag that much. We'll see once I replace it.

frankfast
11-25-2017, 03:43 PM
I got a pair of the springs from Rimmer Brothers in the UK. They are both the same. One side should have 2 extra pieced of spring material.

David

51411

51410

Are you saying that the driver side is supposed to have a stiffer spring?

Geo Hahn
11-25-2017, 06:16 PM
Are you saying that the driver side is supposed to have a stiffer spring?

No. The difference is a pair of very short leaves on the top of the passenger side spring. It is somewhat counter-intuitive but adding thickness to the spring causes that side to sit a little bit lower.

The idea is to have the car sit level when a solo driver is behind the wheel.

Here's a photo (not mine) of those extra leaves (some may call them spacers):

https://i.imgur.com/WjfjlD5.jpg

Not all cars got them (they were discontinued at some point) and possibly not all repros have them either. I added a pair to my TR4 passenger side spring to level the ride.

frankfast
11-25-2017, 08:44 PM
No. The difference is a pair of very short leaves on the top of the passenger side spring. It is somewhat counter-intuitive but adding thickness to the spring causes that side to sit a little bit lower.

The idea is to have the car sit level when a solo driver is behind the wheel.

Here's a photo (not mine) of those extra leaves (some may call them spacers):

https://i.imgur.com/WjfjlD5.jpg

Not all cars got them (they were discontinued at some point) and possibly not all repros have them either. I added a pair to my TR4 passenger side spring to level the ride.

Interesting. That means that when no one was sitting in the car, the passenger side would be lower. Essentially the spacers force the spring downward bringing the chassis with it.

CJD
11-25-2017, 10:13 PM
Or axle upward. Life is perspective.

Geo Hahn
11-26-2017, 11:06 AM
...That means that when no one was sitting in the car, the passenger side would be lower...

Initially yes. Perhaps the intent was to address a tech rule by some sanctioning body that required the car to sit level with a driver on board.

I think what happens over time (say, 50 years) is that the driver's side sags more than the passenger side - so the effect of the spacers is to make the car more level than it would otherwise be.

frankfast
11-27-2017, 01:26 PM
Although not perfect, adding the passenger side leaf spring made a marked improvement. There is now 3/8" difference between the centers of the directional lights. I don't think that the original springs were a match.The greatest improvement is at the front of the car. The centers of the Lucas headlamps are within an 1/8". In order to get the back of the car better, I'm tempted to add a shim on top of the passenger side leaf spring as shown above. We'll see how much it bothers me. In any case, thanks to everyone who've added information to this thread.

CJD
11-27-2017, 05:07 PM
3/8” difference. I’m pretty annul but that wouldn’t bother me.

frankfast
11-27-2017, 07:02 PM
3/8” difference. I’m pretty annul but that wouldn’t bother me.

3/8" difference at the directionals means even more from one side of the car to the other (although difficult to measure). I can still see the difference although much improved. Must be my carpenters trained eye.

sp53
11-28-2017, 10:56 AM
Yeh I have been a journeyman carpenter since 1982 and I feel your pain. I would add the body tub takes shims to level it out also, so perhaps the bench mark with the headlights is floating, like working on a boat, ha ha. Plus there is that whole idea of some people sitting in the car and them weighing the same. Anyways, I think it is fine. The one concern I might have is that I heard the ride can be stiff with the new springs, but I have never had them, so I am comfortably dumb with my old ones that could break at any time, so again you probably did the correct solution because those springs are getting to be the only game in town.
steve

frankfast
11-28-2017, 12:47 PM
Yeh I have been a journeyman carpenter since 1982 and I feel your pain. I would add the body tub takes shims to level it out also,
steve

I agree that the body should be shimmed. When I measure to the frame it is exact right to left.

Funny how many carpenters I meet that are wrenching as a hobby. When I was messing with racing bikes, there was an abnormal amount of carpenters doing the same. After I built my house I traded in my claw hammer for a lump hammer. I'd rather be in my garage dealing with my TR and my bikes rather than fixing a door that rubs. Metal is more fun than wood.