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NutmegCT
09-21-2016, 06:27 AM
It's one thing to have your laptop hacked, and lose data.

It's another thing to have your car hacked, and lose brakes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-37426442

https://media2.giphy.com/media/lDlZoFVhfF2nu/200_s.gif

Not sure I want my car to be "on the net" and me not in control.

eek

GregW
09-21-2016, 07:59 AM
Tesla says they've fixed the problem and done an "over-the-air" update. Seemingly missing the point that "over-the-air" IS the problem.

NutmegCT
09-21-2016, 08:15 AM
Tesla says they've fixed the problem and done an "over-the-air" update. Seemingly missing the point that "over-the-air" IS the problem.

:iagree:

Basil
09-21-2016, 09:53 AM
I just like to drive. Zero interest - less than zero - in a car that drives me around. Besides which, imagine the cost to repair when things go wrong (and with electronics things always go wrong)

Brooklands
09-21-2016, 09:58 AM
Tesla says they've fixed the problem and done an "over-the-air" update. Seemingly missing the point that "over-the-air" IS the problem.

Hear, Hear!!

pdplot
09-21-2016, 11:41 AM
S.D. cars are a bad idea whose time has apparently come. What will it do when some creep is doing 30 mph in a 45 mph zone on a 2 or 3 lane road and holding up a long stream of traffic? What will it do when a small animal runs in front of your car? What will it do on an icy road? How long will you sit there when trying to break into a long line of never-ending traffic and no traffic signal to halt the stream? Just asking.

mikephillips
09-21-2016, 12:10 PM
Self driving and drive by wire that some are experimenting with bother me. We all know that systems that work in aircraft get much more inspection and maintenance over it's life than almost any car gets. Not having a mechanical connection between the steering wheel and pedal and the functioning parts may be problematic several years down the road as rust and wear and damage take their toll. And will those who buy used but more or less functional because that's all they can afford be left with just their shoes??

waltesefalcon
09-21-2016, 06:22 PM
Right on Mike, that is exactly my concern as well.

AngliaGT
09-21-2016, 06:58 PM
I've driven cars with "drive by wire" throttle/steering systems.
I hate them! You're constantly doing minor corrections with the steering,
& on my Wife's Ford Fusion,it's almost impossible to start out (5 speed)
without killing it,without a lot of concentration.
Also,I've been told that the newer appliances (refridgerators/stoves/etc.)
have a life of 4-5 years now.
I don't want to replace a car that often,IF I were buying new cars.

Keith_M
09-21-2016, 07:04 PM
There are any number of hazards that an attentive (and I stress the word attentive) driver can avoid that I doubt a self-driving car will be able to. For example, if I see kids playing beside the road, I slow down. If I see a ball roll across the street, I stop (because a kid is likely to follow it). If I see a deer beside the road, I slow down, especially at night when you can see only their eyes. Can a self-driving car do that? I doubt it.

No thanks. I prefer to control the car.

John Turney
09-21-2016, 08:40 PM
Self-driving cars are for those who text and eat ice cream cones while driving. For the rest of us, I'm with Keith.

Basil
09-21-2016, 11:34 PM
Self-driving cars are for those who text and eat ice cream cones while driving. For the rest of us, I'm with Keith.

:iagree:

pdplot
09-22-2016, 11:51 AM
Today's NY Times has a feature article on self-driving huge trucks being tested in California. Just what we need. As someone here posted a few weeks ago "what could go wrong?"

mikephillips
09-22-2016, 12:03 PM
The proper place for much of this technology is operating as drone hauling cargo in tunnels under cities and in walled off limited access long distance roads where people/animals can't intrude. Then they can operate only needing to be aware of each other and the entrance/exit points with few unforeseen decisions to make. Unfortunately, that infrastructure doesn't currently exist.

SaxMan
09-22-2016, 01:13 PM
The reason most (if not all) of us drive LBCs is because we enjoy the driving experience. For people who feel cars are just a way to get from point a to point b, SDCs make sense. Frankly, I'd think the technology would be more aware of its surroundings than a lot of drivers.

pdplot
09-22-2016, 08:28 PM
As a lawyer, I'm intrigued by the liability aspect of SD cars. Suppose SD car 1 hits SD car 2, crippling the driver for life - who is at fault? Tesla? I feel sorry for the judge who has to hear that case. And there will be cases, you can be sure. What will probably happen is a workers compensation type of system where everybody will get paid according to a strict schedule. No more big awards for pain and suffering. Even though I no longer take negligence cases, I intend as a matter of interest to read up on the literature to see how the legal system intends to deal with this.

Keith_M
09-22-2016, 08:34 PM
As a lawyer, I'm intrigued by the liability aspect of SD cars. Suppose SD car 1 hits SD car 2, crippling the driver for life - who is at fault? Tesla? I feel sorry for the judge who has to hear that case. And there will be cases, you can be sure. What will probably happen is a workers compensation type of system where everybody will get paid according to a strict schedule. No more big awards for pain and suffering. Even though I no longer take negligence cases, I intend as a matter of interest to read up on the literature to see how the legal system intends to deal with this.

I just read (a few weeks ago) a commentary on the legal and ethical implications of self-driving cars. One scenario that was raised was the choice between hitting a pedestrian vs avoiding the pedestrian but running the car into a light pole. Do you program the car to kill/injure the pedestrian or the driver? Neither is ethically defensible in my opinion.

NutmegCT
09-22-2016, 08:49 PM
Keith - this reminds me of the "do I hit the car with only one passenger? or the school bus full of kids?" quandary

The mind boggles.

Gliderman8
09-22-2016, 09:17 PM
I'm guessing that EXTERNAL airbags will become the norm in autonomous cars
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/videos/car-tech-101-external-airbags/

Keith_M
09-22-2016, 09:44 PM
Keith - this reminds me of the "do I hit the car with only one passenger? or the school bus full of kids?" quandary

The mind boggles.

And, can the car tell the difference between a plastic barrel, which you could easily plow through to avoid a collision, and cement bollard? Does the car avoid the plastic barrel but run into another car or pedestrian? The problems seem almost limitless to me, and I just don't see how the technology will be up to the task in the near future. As mentioned earlier, the only exception might be limited-access roads that are designed especially for self-driving cars.

mikephillips
09-23-2016, 01:12 PM
It's unexpected or unanticipated that's the problem and the world is filled with them. That's why they work best as robots in specific settings where those variables can be kept to a minimum. AI systems aren't really intelligent in human terms, they've just been designed to try to anticipate unknowns based on rules and what's happened to them before. No software can yet learn and make connections and recognize differences like the human brain, and if it ever can might be then self aware and not be interested in driving your truck of good or car with kids around.

DrEntropy
09-23-2016, 01:24 PM
SD cars; Not ready for prime time. The Millennials who would have an SDC should opt for public transport and leave the driving to the rest of us.


No software can yet learn and make connections and recognize differences like the human brain, and if it ever can might be then self aware and not be interested in driving your truck of good or car with kids around.

Amen. Puny humans. :smirk:

SaxMan
09-23-2016, 02:01 PM
To protect an SDC from all possible eventualities, they would have to become like those described in the short story "A Nice Morning Drive" by Richard Foster -- this story was the inspiration for the song "Red Barchetta" by Rush. Eventually cars would become massive enough that such impacts with fixed items would be inconsequential for their passengers.

pdplot
09-23-2016, 05:00 PM
I did some extensive reading online about SDCs. Every point we raised as been raised and discussed. Volvo has already said they would be responsible for any accidents caused by their SD system. Insurance would shift primarily from us - the drivers - to the manufacturers and techies who designed these things. And get this. Elon Musk says that non-SD cars should be banned from the highways as too dangerous - and a lot of people agree with him. But his semi SD Tesla has already killed 2 drivers with doubtless more to come.

judow
09-24-2016, 06:21 AM
SDC's - not for me. I have no desire to text and eat dinner while "driving." Wait a minute, I guess we won't call it driving. Geez.

coldplugs
09-24-2016, 04:04 PM
A potential nightmare scenario:

You are traveling on a highway in "auto-drive" mode at 70mph. The car has safely navigated 50 miles on its own. Having nothing to do, you start to doze off.

Suddenly an alarm sounds and the car says "Unsafe condition - auto-drive mode terminated! - you are in control"

...And you find yourself sideways on black ice at 70mph.

NutmegCT
09-24-2016, 04:53 PM
John - ain't that the truth! Similar circumstances have resulted in fatal airline catastrophes. Crew puts the aircraft into auto-pilot (and/or flight director), then relaxes. When weather (or whatever) give too many inputs for the autopilot to handle, it disconnects. But the crew haven't been watching the details, don't know what corrections the autopilot has been making, and don't know the true situation they're flying in.

DrEntropy
09-25-2016, 12:18 PM
And get this. Elon Musk says that non-SD cars should be banned from the highways as too dangerous - and a lot of people agree with him.

Just one more example of the "protect us from ourselves" mentality that seems to be more and more prevalent as time goes on. Fewer folks seem to want to take responsibility for their actions.

"Wussification"! <sheesh>

Basil
09-25-2016, 01:23 PM
Just one more example of the "protect us from ourselves" mentality that seems to be more and more prevalent as time goes on. Fewer folks seem to want to take responsibility for their actions.

"Wussification"! <sheesh>

Elon Musk can go pound sand!

Keith_M
09-25-2016, 02:51 PM
A timely story for this discussion.

https://9to5google.com/2016/09/23/googles-self-driving-car-was-today-in-what-appears-to-be-its-worst-accident-yet/

NutmegCT
09-25-2016, 04:51 PM
Thanks Keith. Here's another take on that accident:

"Instead, the crash shows a much different problem for driverless cars—that they will continue to share the road with fallible human drivers for decades to come."

https://fortune.com/2016/09/25/crash-google-self-driving-car/