Hi gang,

Can anyone give me their two cents on Concours preparation?

I do not have a 100 point car, but I would like to try to do a reasonable job in presenting my 1960 BT-7.
Should I have documentation ready? I have seen people bring binders with restoration photos or their British Heritage Doc etc. Owners manual? Owner history - if you have it?
Should I have the the top as well as the toneau available? Should I have the top up?
Are modern seat belts a negative?
Is a reproduction jack OK?
Is a modern battery versus the original Lucas style a ding?

Any and all input is appreciated!

Thanks all!

-Rob

Rob,
I have never entered a car in concours but I have witnessed some judging and here are my thoughts.
First you need the concours guidelines and I think you are required to bring the score sheets for your car that are part of the guidelines. Even if you are shooting for bronze you need these. Get them ASAP. I would recommend them for anyone resoring one of these cars. There is a lot to learn in there.

You should have any and all documentation available and ready for the judges. Any and all literature, Heritage cert, manuals etc.

Definitely have the top and the tonneau. You will need to show that the top fits and is functional. As well as the sidecurtains.

They may give some slack for modern seatbelts froma safety standpoint.

I think a repro jack may be OK

Need the Lucas battery.

Steve

Hi Rob, You need to get a copy of the current concourse standards and check your car against them. It is more than just a notion.---Keoke

I don't know what sort of Concours some of you have experienced but our National Concours Registry founded in the late '80's and first employed in 1990 has none of what I'm reading in Roger's notes above.
First of all the judging is done against "the book" and not against other cars in the event.
We employ a 1000 point system where 850 to 899 gets a Bronze award, 900 to 949 earns a Silver level and 950 to 1000 is awarded Gold.
Therefore if your car earns 935 points and the car beside yours earns 940, and ther are no others entered in the event, your cars each get a Silver...period. No Gold, and no Bronze, no 1st, 2nd, and so on. Just your car against the score sheets.
Usually judges will only ask about items if they are about to give you the benefit of the doubt. No other documentation is required by the judges and it's strictly up to the entrant if he/she wishes to provide it to the judges.
The judges are required to ask you if there is anything you would like to point out to them before judging commences that is different, non standard or unusual but you feel is original for that particular car that they need to know about.
Technically the owner is required to be the one to open and close things, operate things, etc. unless you give the judges specific permission to do it themselves.
Interestingly all that I have just stated is written in the Natinal Concours Registry's Guidelines and Policies so I can tell from what I just read above that somebody likes to write here in the forum more than they like to read what's in the Guidelines.

Rich

Yes Roger, tou can have more than one winner and what ever judging show you entered it was more of a guessing game in my esttimation than a certified cocourse event.---Keoke.

I forgot to mention, it states clearly in the Policies and Guidelines under Judging Procedures that the car must be presented with top (or hardtop) fitted and sidescreens in place, bonnet and bootlid closed. Everything will be asked to be opened for evaluation as the judging proceeds.

This year for the first time, everything is on a CD that can be printed off as required. Read the entire book, even if you never have your car judged. There have been many people who have worked countless thousands of hours for the last 20 years plus to compile a very complete document of how your car was when new. What you decide to follow is entirely up to you, but there's nothing more pathetic than to hear someone say after the job's done,"I wish I'd known"

Rich

Rob--

I have served on several Concours teams at AHCA and AHS&TC events. Contrary to some opinions expressed this is not a question of whose car is "most correct". Your car is judged against a standard that is pretty well described in the Concours Guidelines which I believe are available off the AHCA website and are really indispensible.

You are essentially shooting for as close to perfect a score as possible so I would not go to the time, trouble and expense of putting your car in to stand for Concours unless you feel it has a good chance of medalling. If the car is obviously not a candidate for a medal you will be eliminated in the prejudging.

I see that Rich Chrysler has chimed in here and please take what he says as gospel.

Rob:

Get ready to get hammered, these guys judge to the book and they know the book very well. Because you are not familiar with the book, chances are your Healey won't be close to medaling -- unless you do lots of work. Most cars that get gold are cars that have been restored from the bottom up by restorers who know the book thoroughly and know how to hide where the cars are wrong.

I walked by a lovely 100M in the concours area in San Diego last year. As I walked past, I noticed halogen headlamps, radial tires, and 72 spoke wires. This beauty barely made bronze, I was surprised it got that far. I heard the judges feasted on its problems, but I still liked the car.

I would sure watch out for that repro jack and incorrect battery. I don't think there is much need for restoration pictures, history, or even the heritage certificate. But if there is something odd about your car (like mine, a 2+2 100)you may need some evidence to support its originality.

The concours folks have done a great job documenting Healey production history, even though some of it may be wrong. The details are fun to read about, and if you pay attention to enough of them you can probably get a medal.

Outstanding info! Thanks to all.

I will indeed go to the AHCA site and buy the Concours guidelines.

My interest is in participating in local Concours events around my area. I believe the judging will be much more about how my car compares to other cars in it's class as opposed to a national standard.

Obviously in a national Healey meet etc. that's an entirely different thing altogether.

Interestingly, I can't recall seeing ANY cars for sale that have listed themselves as prior Gold/Silver/Bronze National class winners. But have certainly seen people list cars as "show winners", "class winners" etc.

Thanks again!

There is a big difference in showing a car at a Concours event and having your car Concours judged at a Healey event. It's true, the judges will rip the car apart over about a two to three hours period. You have to have the correct fuel hose connected to your fuel cross over pipe, with the correct spacing on the braided hose and the soldered ends not to mention the label on it. There are points taken away from everything, ie: wrong hammer, wrong battery. At a Concours show, they are judging the based mainly on the restoration, not if the car is correct. With the Healey's most judges are not sure of what is really original. Most of these cars are so modified for the owners taste that it's hard for them to know what is correct. I will be helping to judge the Healey Class at the Los Angeles Concours this year. For the most part I know what should be on the car. Plus they wouldn't let my car be judged since I took first place already, beating a Healey Gold Concours judged tri-carb and an Allard. The judges were more impressed that I did the restoration in my garage at home, then the fact that it was silver with red racing stripes. So just make sure your car has everything even if it's not correct. If it looks correct, they will not question it.

I heard this "rule of thumb" once about 10 years ago: for a 100 point Concours car, the first 80 points are $1000 per point, the next 10 points are $5000 per point and the last 10 points are $10,000 per point.

Very helpful. And quite right. Having just gone through my first Concours experience, they gave us lots of credit for having done the work ourselves. They also weren't sure about a number of areas in terms of "correctness". They were from the local SCCA and were really "generalists". They actually asked ME for clarity on a few things!

Cheers -

Let me take just a moment to put the word Concourse into its correct perspective.

A Concourse is a large gathering of people or a facility capable of holding a large group of people. Consequently, Cars do not have a monopoly on the definition. However, upscale local enclaves have consistently used the term to announce there car shows, adding the French version of the word Elegant in most cases. Further, if you attend a sanctioned concourse event there will be certified judges there that know more about your car than you do, whether it is a Healy certified event or not.--Fwiw--Keoke

Well, Did they reward you for your hard work or did they say "nice job" and moved on like they did to me at my first Concours show?

They said "nice job" "great car". I was in a class with 4 cars in it. Long story, but I got screwed because of some intermingling of classes which resulted in a car being put in our class that flat out shouldn't have been. We were in 1945-1960 original price under $5000. The car in question was a 1953 Seata 208S that was a TWO TIME "Best in Class" winner at Pebble - no small feat. Probably a $1.5m car.

The owner also had an XK120 entered in the 1945-1960 original price over $5000 class as well. I think some political shenanigans were afoot, because the Seata was some how put in our small class against a 1960 850 Mini, 1957 Fiat Bianccino and me.

The Seata subsequently won Best in Class, Best in Show and a judges trophy. His XK120 won Best in Class as well. You do the math. Frankly, both cars were pristine and I knew as soon as I saw them, I had no chance. So, no issue there.

I thought for sure I would take at least 3rd place as the Mini didn't even have an original engine (1275 instead of an 850)and his headlights didn't work right. alos had a bunch of non-original stuff on it. Didn't make any sense to me as my car was in REALLY nice shape. Not perfect, but certainly better than the Mini. The Fiat was in decent shape, but the "cute factor" prevailed for sure.

After the judging was over and awards given, I found one of the judges that looked at my car and asked him to take me through my car again and point out where I could improve. that was very helpful. That said, they were minor points. Door squeaked, incomplete tool set, some wrinkles in my top, beat up side curtains (neither of which - top and curtains - I ever use)etc.

So, all in all, it was a great learning experience as a first time.

Paint it red.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
The important thing is what you think of your car and not a judge at an open show. I would respect the opinions only of those who judge by Healey Concours guidlines. Other types are "policical" and "who you know" type events not based upon knowledge of the vehicle. Often it is a "good old boy network" that you will never be able to break into. Best to be tried by a jury of your piers.
That is just my 2 cents.

This is VERY true. I build models and have often entered contests. I'd occasionally build a model specifically for a contest. Throw all the details in it. Most often it would not win. Enter a model I built because I liked it and many times it would place or win.

There is a big difference in anything you do to meet the expectations of others and anything you do because your heart is in it. Always go with your heart because at the end of the day, that's what really matters.