Having been in the process of reassembling my BJ-7 I installed the doors only to find that the top exterior chrome door trim was longer, by nearly 1/2", than the opening at the rear of the door and overlapped the chrome finisher at the top of the rear wing. Also the door molding sat approx. 1/2" lower than the fender molding piece.

This leads me to believe that I am encountering frame sag and I wonder if I were to jack up the center of the frame rails so as to eliminate the sag and then bolt a section of 3/16" plate to either side of the frame rails between the front and rear outrigger, to act as a stiffener, what effect that might have on the function of the car.

I would appreciate any advice regarding this idea.

Thank you,

robert

Can you say what has been done beforehand. Is it just being reassembled or has there been welding work done?

Personally I don't think what you are suggesting will stop any sag. It may also be pretty obvious if you come to sell.

If the door is sagging it may be play in the hinges or just a question of getting the position correct with some packing behind the lower hinge. The rear edge of the door slopes backwards quite a lot, so the hole where the door goes is longer at the top than the bottom. Raising the door (or rotating it about the top hinge with packing under the lower hinge) will move the rear higher up to a wider position where the chrome trim will have more room to fit.

hope this is halfway clear. Should have had a drink first..

Richard

Robert, is the motor/trans in place?? Suspension(s)??


Ed

Sounds like you definitely have some frame issues. It is hard to tell if you can fix it without seeing some photos of the frame and the door fit. Is there any evidence of any prior repairs to the frame? How rusty is/was the top of the fram rails in the passenger compartment? What is/was the condition of the original outriggers and the frame behind them?
Bolting a 3/16 plate on the bottom will not do any good. First, it will stick out like a sore thumb to any future potential buyer and tell them that the frame has serious issues. If you want to strengthen in any way, the best method is to get a 1/8 inch plate inside the frame rails on the veritcal plane and plug weld it to the old frame once you have it twisted to the right shape. This would need to go al the way between the outriggers to do any good. All this must be done with the engine, trans and rear end in place.

Another thought. What is the condition of your sills? If these are rotted or weak the frame will sag significantly.

The problem with doing that is changing the gap of the bottom of the door to rocker panel. It will also change the gap between the door and front fender. Just trading problem areas as it were.

Hi Robert,
I agree with everyone for more info on the state of the car, are the inner fenders welded on, sills: new or original? A photo of the area would help a lot, maybe the whole door as a starter.

Robert, it has been explained to me that this "light wait" frame design maintains its strength in the sides of its box design, how does this area look to you? have you gone around and tried to poke a sharp tool through any area of the frame? i.e. top, sides, bottom etc, one really can not tell its integrity until doing so.

Thank you all for your responses.
The outriggers, side rails, sills, and floor panels and foot wells were replaced, by me, quite some years ago. The frame is without rust and in good shape. the engine, transmission, rear end and all body panels with the exception of the doors have been painted and are on the car.

I think that what might have happened was that when I cut the old outriggers, sills and frame rails away I neglected to measure carefully when welding in the new ones, and, without their support to lock the main frame in place the frame sagged.

Unfortunately I had no previous experience with this type of work, took an auto body class at the local college, and just tore into it without really understanding all the issues involved. Everything seemed to work out although when I first trial fitted the doors, years later, there was a gap problem and I had to do some modification to the doors to eliminate the problem, without considering that a more comprehensive solution was necessary. Everything otherwise seemed to fit until I installed the doors and then attached the door top chrome and discovered it was longer than the opening and 1/2" below the top of the chrome end cap on the rear wing front.At first I considered cutting down the trim piece and re-chroming it but also the front wing window frame hits the windshield frame when the doors close so I won't get off so easily.

Upon further thought I too realized that just jacking up the frame won't work as the frame is locked in position by the side rails and sills. My latest idea is to cut through the sills and side rails and then jack up the center of the frame, open the gap and re-weld the sections back together. I can see no other possibility to open up that gap at the top.

As is usual with much I do, my enthusiasm and overconfidence got the best of my good sense. If all I wanted out of this car was a perpetual sculptural project I suppose that's what I seem to have accomplished.

Steve,
Re. the suggestion
"If you want to strengthen in any way, the best method is to get a 1/8 inch plate inside the frame rails on the veritcal plane and plug weld it to the old frame once you have it twisted to the right shape. This would need to go al the way between the outriggers to do any good. All this must be done with the engine, trans and rear end in place."
I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean weld it to the outer frame rails or to the main frame members. Please discribe more thoroughly what you suggest.

Thank you all for the assistance.

Robert

Robert

You state that you have you modified the doors as well to try to get a fit, have you trimmed the edges down in some way? I do not understand how the door chrome can all of a sudden be long.

Regarding jacking up the centre of the chassis, first of all, this should only be attempted if it is required, they can and do bend over the years, Chatham did it to my first car when he did the rebuild but it was done during the rebuild, not after to get the doors to line up. Chain down the ends to the concrete floor and jack up the centre sections a tad.

Has the A post and bulk head rotated, this would cause the drop in the doors and the closing up of the gap at the top of the doors.

Bob

Bob,

It isn't that the chrome finisher is too long, it's more that the top of the door opening is smaller, due to the frame sagging and, my lack of care/knowledge when removing and replacing the outriggers, sill and the frame behind the sill.

My thinking is that by cutting through the center of the sill and back frame I will remove the structural support to the frame which would allow me to position it correctly and then re-weld.

Currently I am in the analysis stage and would appreciate any further input.

Robert

Hi Robert,
If I understand you correctly, no amount of frame bending will make the shortened door long enough to fit the door trim. With regards to the wing window, you may be able to adjust the windshield for a better fit. I’m still unclear what the gaps around the door are like; front bottom and rear. How much material did you take off the door? Was it the ½” you’re dealing with now, or less?

Oh yeah, and PICTURE!
That could be the difference in a wrong diagnosis.

This could be an easy fix. It may be that the rear shroud is too high, instead of the door being too low. My shroud has a natural tendency to spring upward and there is a fair amount of play in relation to the inner fender. You may be able to loosen the three front-most fender bolts and push the shroud downward.

Greg,
I'll try to take some photos tomarrow.

I tried adjusting the window vent frame to fit properly however it wouldn't adjust enough to do the job.

When the door closes it fits the opening, (as I trimmed the door edge down) however the top rear of the chrome finisher overlaps the top fender finisher end cap by 1/2" (although the actual top edge flange on the door, which the trim piece is connected to by the folded over channel of the trim piece, is the correct length for the finisher. The problem seems to be that the door opening is smaller at the top than at the bottom. What I should have done was to correct the door opening and not trim the door thinking that would correct the problem, although it seemed to correct the problem of the door fitting the opening until I attached the trim piece and discovered that it didn't fit and couldn't easily be shortened to also fit the opening.

As I remember, the rear shroud bolts fit the bolt holes in the inner fender so I don't see how it could be lowered, unless I drilled new holes in either the shroud or the fender.

What are your thoughts about cutting the sill and what is behind it (I don't remember what it's called. Is it the outrigger?) adjusting the top opening and re-welding?

Robert

Good to start with the vent window, but I meant the windshield. See if that can be angled up a little.


That could get ugly if you've welded the floor to the sill, all those welds would have to be removed.

Here's a question; How level is the trunk floor? The wide piece that is welded to the rear frame and rivets to the shroud . I'm wondering if it slopes up as it goes rearward towards the shroud. What may have happened is the inner fenders were welded with the rear being too high, that would account for the door gaps being OK except for where you trimmed.

Hi Robert, I have been in the assessment stage of evaluating my Healey body and frame for about a month or more now. I'm really sorry to hear about your plight. But hopefully there will be some adjustment capability with out having to resort to cutting the frame apart again. firstly, I would make sure that the chrome finishers can't be moved to allow more clearance. even if you have to route out some screw holes to do it. The vent window frame and the windshield frame should allow some movement in their mounting to see if you can gain anything there. (all this is assuming that the frame really hasn't saged much). If the frame really has saged enough to reduce the door openning by 1/2 inch, then I would seriously have reservations about its integrity and strength. Aside from that, lets just see if you can sag or flex the frame. to do this , I would loosen the engine and trans mounts. Then put some cribbing or wooden shoring across the frame rails in the middle from underneith and put the jack under that. then hoist away and see if the door opennings open up.
Another point. When assembling a body, the position of all panels is considered dubious until you positon them all to get the correct gaps at every joint. If you have installed one panel,fender,etc, one at a time and tightened them up as you went, then found that the final openning was not right, (this case being your door opennings) Then I would suggest loosen them all and moving them around a bit.
I hope it is not your frame. The only real way tofix that, is the right way. TAKE IT ALL APART.

Robert: It might help to know what was done to the car since the last time you know for sure that everything actually fit. For instance, when you first started, was the car complete and assembled with reasonable gaps all around? If so, maybe you can trace, step by step, what was done since that time. Got any "before" pictures, and in progress shots?

A possible suggestion would be to get the beast on a frame machine, with a knowlegeable technician. Could be that a proper tug here and there might help. Also, is the problem the same on both sides? Some pictures surely would help.

Some data:
The door measurements are:
Left side: top-29 7/8" bottom-30 7/8"
Right side: top-29 3/4" bottom-30 7/8"

Door opening:
Right side: top-30 1/8" bottom-30 13/16"
Left side: top-30 3/16" bottom- 31 1/4"

As it was more than 20 years ago when I began I don't remember jut how well everything fit but it seems as if the doors must have fit the openings as I remember I could close them both.
Shortly after getting the car I replaced the floor panels (both sides), sills(both sides, foot wells (both sides) sill backing (both sides). I believe I did this with the frame (not the suspension) supported with jacks.

Last summer I modified the doors by cutting them down to match the openings.

IF ANYONE CAN TELL ME THEIR MEASUREMENTS FOR DOORS (TOP & BOTTOM) AND DOOR OPENINGS (TOP & BOTTOM I WOULD APPRECIATE IT.

Enclosed images. If anyone would like more or more clearly done let me know.

Robert

More photos

more photos:

In the bottom one the matching body line is slightly lower on the door but, if I added shims to bring it up the wing window frame, which already is too tight to fit, wouldn't fit at all (see vent photo above post)

Taking a solid rule and using a level, the door openings of my BJ7 measures 30 1/2 inches on both sides of the car. The door opening is parallel and does not make a difference if it is the top, middle or bottom. I have my BJ7 presently on a frame jig so the frame is level. All door opening measurements were taken level.

It looks like there may be something a bit amiss with that rear shroud finisher. The bottom should be right on top of the fender bead, yours looks to be about a 1/2 inch above. Either that or the finisher itself is the wrong dimension. Was the rear shroud ever off the car? If so, was the front pushed down as far as it could go when it was reinstalled? The door does not look to be that far off at the swage line.

I measured the top of my door yesterday and also got 30½”. I agree with Steve that your shroud is too high where it meets the door (top of shroud to top of fender distance is too great). I’m not sure what you mean by sill backing? It is possible that when you replaced the sills, the rear inner fender may have shifted on you and was welded back in a different spot.

First thing I’d do, is get the wheels on the car and get it on the ground. That could change a lot of things.

One other thing, the chrome trim that goes around the rear of the shroud, are all the screws holding it in? If you squeeze it against the shroud, does it move at all? Any slack will make it project forward towards the door.

Greg.

What I mean by sill backing is the front to back box section welded between the rear and front inner fender. What is it actually called? I'll check out all the issues mentioned. Unfortunately my trimming of the doors shouldn't have been done & I suppose that I'll have to grind them down and add the width that I removed.

Ho hum, one step forward, two steps back.

Thanks again for the aid!

Robert

OK, I think what you're calling the sill is the rocker panel. The sill back is the sill. See the Moss ill. if I got it right. This is probably the most frustration part of a restoration. I've been and still am to a certain degree, right where you are. So I know how you feel.

The door opening is determined by the location of the hinge pillar and the shut fact pillar. If you replaced the rockers, you necessarily cut the bottom of these pillars from the rockers. Improper relocation of these parts after installing new rockers would account for an improper opening width at the bottom. Too wide an opening at the top could be a function of frame flex. Place the car, fully assembled, on its wheels and measure the top opening again. If the opening decreases significantly then, you are dealing with a flexing frame. The frame can be reinforced from the inside, by opening a hole, insering a properly sized length of angle iron, and plug welding at intervals, closing the opening afterwards.

If the pillars are incorrectly installed, they can be cut from the rockers and re-positioned. Caution, here, though. The pillars in part determine the position of the fenders. This operation calls for careful fitting and checking of panel fit beofre committing to final welding.

If either or both of the above are the problem, I would certainly advise getting someone to do the job who has the knowledge, experience and patience to do it right. This is neither simple, quick nor inexpensive.

Getting the doors to the right size shouldn't be too big of a problem.

I hope I'm wrong about the above, but with the history of rocker relplacement, odd opening measurements and the prior need to modify the doors, this just doesn't seem to be a quick fix problem.

Just remembered something. The pillar location is not solely determined by their location on the rockers. You can replace the rockers without cutting the pillars completely loose, so all the above may not be the problem. Hope not.

I just discovered these excellent tutorials on replacing sills, A & B pillers and all related sections. They are for restoration on an Aston-Martin but the process is similar for the Healey.

http://www.aston-v8.co.uk/
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/sills.htm

Robert

Robert Ellison, thanks for the Aston martin stuff really helps to clarify things, i have a similar situation as far as door gaps on my 63 bj7 that i managed to correct by shimming the door but i know more attention is needed on the r/s passenger door, ive been to a couple of local body shops and showed them my car but could not agree on how they proposed to address the issue and their prices way off the charts, like they say if you want it done right do it yourself.

I love to do things myself. But the line is drawn here with me. Over the past year, I have watched the slow, difficult and expensive steps taken by an experienced Healy body man required to bring the doors and body panels into proper fit and alignment on my 66 BJ8. While not black magic, this stuff is complicated. Every step you take in one area affects the entire car, it seems. I've been through what Robert is experiencing. Not fun. Good news is that the result is fantastic.

One thing that comes to mind as a possibility. When the sill was removed, the lower structural support for the hinge pillar (which is welded to the outer side panel) would be gone. The pedal box brace would hold it in position somewhat, but there could have been some sag to the hinge pillar that wasn’t addressed when welding the sill back in. An eighth of an inch sag at the pillar would equate to a much larger degree of off-ed-ness at the rear door-to-shut pillar. An additional thing to check is how the aluminum finisher fits along the rocker and sill. While it rests on the rocker, how does it fit the sill? I would venture a guess that it will be too short at the back. The double fold that overhangs the sill will not reach over the sill and still be resting on the rocker panel. The arrow in this photo shows the direction that the hinge pillar would have sagged.

Robert,
I feel your pain with this issue. I have a 63 BJ7 #20040. I have been doing a frame off restoration the past 6 years. I have been in your exact same boat. I replaced inner and outer sills, floor pans, big rusty areas in the tops of frame rails and 2/3 of all the rea inner sheet metal. I made the mistake of removing the rear inner sheet metal from off of the car.
What I would do is make sure that your frame is level underneath. Look in the book or th back of the Haynes manual for dimensions. My frame was like an old sway back horse and I had to bend the rear 3 ft or so back down a slight bit. That should make your shroud come down at the top. I had as much overlap as you have. Also, like others have said, just a little change around the sill can make a big difference in the doors. I had cut and re-welded my inner panels so many times that I had to get a couple new ones because the the first replacement set was too garfed up. I had the doors off and on propbably 100 times or so. I too had not enough clearance like you.
Eventually, things came together, you just need to keep after it. I actually started at my front fender where the car dimensions were all original and no panels were replaced the got the front door gaps to fit well, shimmed ones side slightly, then worked on the rear door gap. I moved the new rear latch panel (B panel or post) to the back of the car 1/8 or a 1/4 of an inch. I actually had to grind about 1/8-3/16 off of the front of the shroud to get it to fit behind the little chrome finisher.

If I had it to do over, once I had my panels on (which always move when you weld them anyway unless you have them clamped in a jig). I would take the frame to a body shop, all wheels on the floor or at lease jack stands at the wheel points, then clamp the frame to the floor and use a portable hydraulic puller to get the dimensions correct. Then split the difference between the panels. I had to make holes bigger and really move stuff around but now my car is painted and my gaps look really good. All of the hard work is worth it in the end.
You could put the hydraulic ram, (I think that Harbor Freight sells them for $150 or so) inside of the car and brace it against the corners or the flooring, use a piece of wood to spread out the preassure of the ram, then push your sill out slightly if it needs it. You might get 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch doing this, I did.
As far as your doors being cut too much if they are, you can always get some 1/8 square stock at you local hardware store and tack weld it back on then grind to fit. I would finish it up with one of those all-metal type body fillers though. They tend to be stronger than typical polyester body fillers.
Note: If you jack your car up at the ends of the frame, beyond the wheels, especially at the rear, the door gaps can change as much as 1/4 of an inch at the top.

Randy
Healey-Archaeologist
63 BJ7
66 Cobra replica
06 Mini Cooper S