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TR2/3/3A Generator Configurations

CJD

Yoda
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It's generator rebuild time. Thanks to my magic pile and the parts car, I have 5 of them. The one that came on the TR2 had no fan on the front. Two others are the usual configuration having a fan inside the pulleys. And, finally, the last two are later generators with fans and stepped housings.

I know the non-fanned generator that came on the TR2 is not original, as it is stamped 7/59, and the car was built in '55. So, my question is if the very early generators were, in fact, fanless...or was the one on the car just a very cheap replacement?
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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IMO it was just improperly assembled, or possibly from some application with another fan nearby. (For example, the VW bug had the end of the generator sticking into the shroud for the main engine fan.) Generators are not very efficient at all, much of the input power gets turned into heat which has to be removed. They have to have fans (or have very low current ratings).

According to the SPC, all TR2-3 took the same fan, 102986. The Lucas catalogs don't list them, though, so I assume that means the fan (and pulley) were supplied by S-T rather than Lucas.

As I'm sure you'll discover, there are a lot of subtle differences between the various flavors of TR generator. Check to make sure the parts you choose work together, before you spend a lot of time repairing or restoring them. I once put a good deal of work into an end plate, only to discover that it didn't fit the main housing that I was working with. Looked like it should fit, but no dice.

Also, don't lose the little spacer that goes between the bearing and the fan. It's easy to overlook, but kind of important :smile:
 

vivdownunder

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I've got some notes on which is which.

TR2/3 to TS9842- Lucas part 22258D (with cover band around housing)
Thereafter to TR3A TS60000- Lucas part 22258 E or F (no cover band)
After TS60001 - Lucas part 22700 (spade terminals)
Exact change point unrecorded but for TR3B/TR4 - Lucas part 22704

Lucas number is stamped on the housing. All started out with a fan behind the wide belt pulley.

Viv
 
OP
CJD

CJD

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Andrew, I'm not sure which model they are. So far I have just disassembled the one that came on the car, which is stamped 22258. I'll get deeper into the details as I go, but the lack of fan was a blaring difference.

Thanks again, Randall and Viv. All that info is very helpful. There is no band on the generator...so I feel pretty confident this was just a quick replacement some PO installed and forgot to reinstall the fan. I won't put too much time into it now that I know it's not correct.
 

sp53

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I remember something like what you mention Viv. I had an old generator with the band then later thought it was a starter and now I cannot find it. The early terminals on the back are different and the early ones did not have that step down on the main case. I do have an older kinda NOS 56 or 57 generator and if you need a picture I will put it up. I have an old memory of the oiler spot on the back bushing being different on the older generators also. I think it had a cover or maybe an extension or something. It is too bad Berry Nelson is not on the forum because he had/has a nice collection of TR2 parts. He retired and moved from Seattle to New Mexico, so he is down by you now John. One day he was showing me some shifters he had made up from a tr2 shifter he had. There was something quit unique about them, but I cannot remember exactly what now. I never had a TR2, so I never paid that much attention, but Berry had a couple.
 

TR3driver

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Are they all C39 generators?
The "stepped housing" ones will be C40 (or C40-1). Physically they interchange (the C40 was frequently supplied as a replacement for the C39) but Lucas warned to use the matching control box. I've never understood why a C39 control box wouldn't work well with a C40 generator, but they imply there is a problem there. And given how easy it is to burn up a generator, it's probably best not to take the chance. At one time, I was spending most of my disposable income on rebuilt generators, which, now that I think about it, were all C40 generators (sold as replacements for C39) being used with a C39 control box. Most likely the root cause was the adjustment of the control box, but ???

The Lucas documentation makes it appear that there was no change point as such between 22700 and 22704. They are listed as alternatives to each other from 1960 through 1965, on both TR3 (which includes A and B) and TR4.
 
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CJD

CJD

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OK, per my usual, I now have no less than 5 generators disassembled on my bench. One is a C39 with the propper early post style connections as per the TR2. One is a C39 with spade connections, I assume for an early TR3. And 3 are C40's, for TR3A's and beyond.

Now for my questions...

I busted the TR2 amateur in removing it. It's repairable, but I don't see the point since I have 4 others. Then, one of the C40's was in my TR3A, but it did not produce power, and sparked a lot visibly through the back plate when it was turning. I figure I can eliminate those armatures as bad. So, I need to pick 2 out of the 3 remaining armatures to go in one rebuilt C39 and one C40.

How do you test a generator armature? The book says to use a growler, and if that is unavailable...to test them by swapping out. So, what's a growler?? Are local shops likely to have one?

Finally...is there a visible difference between the C39 and C40 armatures? Each of the 5 I have on the bench is different. None are marked.
 

TR3driver

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To find a growler, you'll need an "old time" auto electric shop. A quick Google turned up Santiago Auto Electric in Haltorn City, which might be worth a call. Helios Electric Motors might be worth a call as well; although they are more into wind power, they may have some history with DC motors/generators. Or Auto Electric Systems in Dallas.

There's also a few of them on eBay, but the prices seem high to me.

Sorry, I remember the armatures are different, but can't tell you which is which offhand. I would expect the C40 to be larger in some way (since it generates more output), but just don't recall. Should be pretty easy to tell, though, with a test assembly.

PS, Here's an auction with some good photos.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Snap-On-Ar...1561610935&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr

The main function of a growler is to apply an AC magnetic field to the armature (which essentially simulates operating conditions) and measure how much voltage it produces. You can also check for shorted windings and such by how they distort the magnetic field.

PPS, Here are some instructions for a generic growler.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2H2NJt34OffXzRIZ1BiV21yMlE/edit?usp=sharing
 

Don Elliott

Obi Wan
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My 1958 TR3A came brand new with threaded studs for the both wires out the rear of the generator. I can remember having to put in a new generator about 5 or 6 years later so the one I got was for a later TR3A and it has the large threaded stud and the connector for the smaller wire had a spade for a push-on connection. I prefer that because it's a real b---ger to get the threaded nut off the rear of the generators that came on (I assume) all the TRs before mine.. But on a few occasions, I've had the spade connection slip off and thought that it had packed up. Both times, it took me a few miles to think about it and about a minute to slide it back on.

Don Elliott, Original Owner, TS 27489 LO

TRA always dock me part of a point in the judged concours shows because I have a spade "push-on" connector for the smaller wire.
 
OP
CJD

CJD

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Thanks, Randall...good info. It looks like the growler provides input and reads the output. At least I know what I'm looking for now. Don, that's interesting that there are even hybrid generators with both studs and spades.

I can't see any consistent difference between the armatures. On some the initial winding goes clockwise...and on others they wind counterclockwise. They are identical length and diameter. It appears the C40's might have slightly smaller diameter wire for the windings...so perhaps they have more wraps to get the extra power. Of course, all of these may have been mix-matched over 50 years!?!

The basic configuration is the same, and the field windings are all 6 ohms, whether C39 or 40. So the key difference must be the armatures. I'll let you guys know what I find with testing...
 

TR3driver

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My 1958 TR3A came brand new with threaded studs for the both wires out the rear of the generator. I can remember having to put in a new generator about 5 or 6 years later so the one I got was for a later TR3A and it has the large threaded stud and the connector for the smaller wire had a spade for a push-on connection.
FWIW, I don't believe that configuration was ever supplied as original. I believe the original C39PV-2 units all had nuts for both connections; while both versions of the C40 had 'Lucar' quick connects for both connections. (But I do agree on how hard it is to install that nut!)
It would be interesting to know what part number & letter is stamped into your generator, Don.

Looking through the Lucas documentation (the 400e Master Catalog plus 61 and 62 catalogs), there were only 3 different part numbers used on TR2-3B (with several letter variations of each part number).

The earlier units (to 1960) were all part number 22258, with 22258D (with the band over the brushes) being used for 54-55 and 22258E-F used for 56-59. All of these units took the same 227693 armature and 227702 end bracket (meaning they had the same connection types, as the end brackets changed for the various connection configurations).

From 1960-onwards, they apparently used either 22700B-E or 22704A-D more or less interchangeably. These units all took the same 227987 armature and 54211125 end bracket.

But I'm like John, there are a lot of parts in the bin that don't work and play well together. So I'm guessing it was quite common to supply some other, more-or-less equivalent part number for replacements. I do recall that, back in the early 70's, I was sold a C40 to fit my 59 TR3A. Those 3/8" quick connects were rather hard to find, even then. (Although living in upstate Indiana certainly didn't help.) Likely, even the rebuilders made a habit of mixing parts together.
 
OP
CJD

CJD

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Here are some photos to add to the verbage.

This is a close up of the portion of the armature shaft that supports the front bearing. The one on the right is knurled. Knurling is a cheap solution to replacing the shaft when it has worn below tolerance. My guess is that the ball bearing locked on this shaft and the knurling is to try to save the shaft. It will...for a time.



I examined all my armatures as closely as possible. There are 2 differences, but the differences are not unique between the C39 and 40. Both these armatures pic'd are from C39's. You will note that one is wound right, and the other wound left. Also, the visible wires of one go to every contact on the commutator, while the other does not.





This is a C39 right next to the C40. The C40 armature has one (1) "1" more plate than the C39. That is the only difference I can find between them that is consistent.



Here are the 5 I started with, and the next pic shows the only 2 assemblies worth rebuilding. The clean parts are from the TR3A generator that I rebuilt 3 years ago. It apparently had a shorted armature, as it produced no power.








These are the basic back plates. The dirty is the early 2/3 post back plate. The clean is the later TR3A onward.





And, finally, the feild post configs. The first is the early design.





Now, back to my search for a "growler". If I can't find one, I will simply rebuild both generators and then swap them in my running car for an on-car test.
 
OP
CJD

CJD

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Gotta question for any of the EE types out there. I have removed all of the field coils from the yokes (housings). I have always wondered about painting these assemblies. The field coils are wrapped around a core that is screwed inside the yoke. Can the cores be painted, or do the magnetic properties depend on direct metal to metal contact of the yoke and core?
 

sp53

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You mean something this. It is varnish rather than paint.
 

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TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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I don't believe the paint itself would be a problem. If there was any issue, it would be the thickness of the paint holding the coils farther away, but I can't see that as being a problem.
 
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CJD

CJD

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Thanks Steve, Randall. The yokes will be closer with paint, but I think the clearance is far greater than the thickness of the paint would be. I guess I'll go with a clear laquer or varnish, as they are thin and should protect the steel from corrosion.
 
OP
CJD

CJD

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OK, you guys will get a kick out of this. Per Randall's suggestion, I went on the internet and bought a growler for $35. Now, don't laugh, cause the one that was ending the auction first is a 90 year old Growler!





Is that cool or what!?! As usual, I studied the deal for three days and realized the principal is simple, and the newer ones only differ in that most have a built in volt/ammeter. The physics are that the device is just an open core electro-magnet. It is wound with a 110 volt coil, and the armature is placed on the open end to close the core. Here are the basics of how easy it works...



The armature is placed on the growler as in the first pic, and the power for the 110v coil is switched on. This starts to cycle a 60hz pulsing magnetic field around the armature, and the steel in the armature completes the growler core. Now, you take something with iron, in my case a hack-saw blade, and spin the armature as you hold the blade over the top. If the windings in the armature are intact, the blade is just lightly magnetically attracted to the armature, since the field generated by the windings offset the growler magnetic field. If there are any shorts in the armature winding, the blade will rattle on the armature at 60 hz, in the region with the shorted winding. I don't understand...but apparently the shorted winding is unable to offset the growler field. That insures that the armature has no shorts in the coils.





Step 2. Here you use these contactors to check each adjacent set of contacts on the commutator. The growler power is off for this. If there is an open coil, the light will not light as you check 2 adjacent. The armature I broke had 2 open wires, and sure enough, the light test failed at 2 locations on the commutator.

Step 3. Now use the light contactors to check the commutator to the armature core. You can check each commutator contact, but if the other checks were good, any contact will light the light if there is a short to the core.




Step 4. Here we switch on the growler again and use a voltmeter. Those new-fangled growlers have the volt meter built in...I had to use a separate one. Now, you test the voltage that the growler magnetic field is inducing within the armature. Viewed from the commutator end of my pic, the highest induced voltage is at the 9 o-clock position. Once again, you check 2 adjacent commutator pads. This particular armature produced 1.4 volts. Now rotate the armature one pad and check the next two contacts for the same 1.4 volts at the same 9 o-clock position...and so on till you are around the entire commutator. You have just made sure that none of the coils in the armature have partial internal shorts within the coils.

That's it!

I checked 5 generator and 1 starter armature in about 30 minutes. And, best of all, I have a working antique "Growler" to hang on the office wall now!
 
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