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Swage line alignment - Swage line reshape?

jjs64bj8

Senior Member
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Are in final stages of body work (in primer) restoring a 64 BJ8. Door gaps pretty good, rocker contour/gap good, door edges fairly flush with the fenders all around, but the swage line does not line up exactly, especially at the right rear. I will add that they did not line up before the car was disassembled either, and the car was original and never restored/disassembled, just in poor shape. So it came from factory like that.

As mentioned the tops of the doors as they curve inward are flush with front and back fenders on both sides, so to adjust the door/fenders to get the swage line to line up exactly would screw up the flush alignment and the door gaps.

To get it exact one would have to either reshape the doors swage line or adjust the doors to get swage alignment, then build up,reshape top of doors/fenders where they meet, and redo the gaps all over. At this point my only option is to leave them alone, or try to reshape by lowering the swage line with body filler or lead. I am sure this has been done, but I am afraid I do no have that talent and may or may not look right when done.

How important is the alignment of the swage line? Car will not be painted two tone. Car is not going to a museum piece, but we want it as correct as it can be. From the photos, what would all of you do? Leave it alone or try to reshape the rear part of the door swage to match rear fender? Opinions?

Note, I recently attended a British car show in Tampa where there were at least 25-30 Healeys. Some swage lines were perfect, most were closer to mine, and a few were worse. Yet all the cars in my opinion looked better than new. I actually bought a brand new Healey in 1968 so I have some recollection of how they came.

Thanks

jjs64bj8
 

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Keoke

Great Pumpkin
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IF it were me I would not bother it. It can be corrected but it is a lot of ticky work.
 

HealeyRick

Yoda
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If you're restoring it for yourself, then you have to decide whether it's going to drive you crazy every time you see it or whether you're happy with the knowledge they were imperfect from the factory and that the assemblers often tried two or three fenders to see which one fit best. If you're restoring it for resale, some buyers really go crazy over perfect swage and shut lines. I'm wondering if you could cut a 3 or 4" section of the rear fender containing the swage and reposition it upwards and filling the section left at the bottom with new metal? Probably need a talented welder not to warp the panel and if it were my car, I'd prefer having a solid original fender than one that had been jimmied with like that.
 

kkaa

Jedi Hopeful
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Im with Rick on this one. It depends on what your doing with the car keeping or not. If your keeping, Id say fix it now and not pay the toll in your head for the next 100yrs! HA! Youll see it every-time you wash it and punch yourself.

Having said that, they look really really close and a great job at that! The only one Id say needs a tweak is the first pic. I wonder if you can attach the bottom of the fender first, puching up really hard and getting the line to match up. Then, attach the screws by the latch to hold, before going to the top and attaching there. You may pick up the 1/8th.

[h=1]I can take some better pics, but we were just in the same place :>) https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcf...nyone-Have-Closeup-Panel-Fitment-Photos/page3[/h]
Are in final stages of body work (in primer) restoring a 64 BJ8. Door gaps pretty good, rocker contour/gap good, door edges fairly flush with the fenders all around, but the swage line does not line up exactly, especially at the right rear. I will add that they did not line up before the car was disassembled either, and the car was original and never restored/disassembled, just in poor shape. So it came from factory like that.

As mentioned the tops of the doors as they curve inward are flush with front and back fenders on both sides, so to adjust the door/fenders to get the swage line to line up exactly would screw up the flush alignment and the door gaps.

To get it exact one would have to either reshape the doors swage line or adjust the doors to get swage alignment, then build up,reshape top of doors/fenders where they meet, and redo the gaps all over. At this point my only option is to leave them alone, or try to reshape by lowering the swage line with body filler or lead. I am sure this has been done, but I am afraid I do no have that talent and may or may not look right when done.

How important is the alignment of the swage line? Car will not be painted two tone. Car is not going to a museum piece, but we want it as correct as it can be. From the photos, what would all of you do? Leave it alone or try to reshape the rear part of the door swage to match rear fender? Opinions?

Note, I recently attended a British car show in Tampa where there were at least 25-30 Healeys. Some swage lines were perfect, most were closer to mine, and a few were worse. Yet all the cars in my opinion looked better than new. I actually bought a brand new Healey in 1968 so I have some recollection of how they came.

Thanks

jjs64bj8
 
OP
J

jjs64bj8

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Thanks for the replies so far. Yes the right rear, first photo is the worse. I am doing all the work and in the last year the fenders/door/shrouds have been on and off a zillion times. Maybe time to move on. Only thing left is to weld the rockers on before paint. I played with kkaa's idea and there is no movement left. So as in original post, appears only option is to reshape the door with filler. I would be interested to hear from someone who did that, how they did it, and how successful they were.

As far as keeping the car, I am looking at the car as an retirement annuity, so in a few years after completion and some enjoyment, I will sell it and want to get the most out of it, as we are in it pretty cheap. As I mentioned I bought a new 67 (one of last ones made in 1968) so I am getting up in years. By the way I still have the original invoice when I bought that car, $3750 new! Too bad I did not keep that one.

jjs64bj8
 

vette

Darth Vader
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JJ, that aint to bad. But yeh the right one is alittle distressing. Here's the pics of mine with "THE BRAND NEW FENDERS FROM ENGLAND, AND I HATE TO TELL YOU WHAT I PAID FOR THEM! "
And my doors are hung without any shims so the doors are right where they're suppose to be. Since I had to cut the leading flange off the fender anyway to get the fit right, I went ahead and flattened the swage line and rebent it. Then moved the flange line to meet the door and rewelded it.
But yours are really only slightly off. I believe i saw that the right rear is the worse, as with mine. In your case there is any easy answer. Your thought of putty or lead is possible, but in this situation on other project cars I started to use 3M bonding adhesive. 3M makes a bonding adhesive for just about any material. I don't have the spec on the one I use alot, but it is a translucent brown when dry. Don't use the black stuff. This stuff bonds to metal as strong as a weld. It is actually designed to apply fenders and other panels without welding or with minimal spot welds. It can be used to build up body lines and then shaped down to the line you want. I have used it on Corvettes many times. It does not need a pressure fit panel. It just stick s to anything. In your case for that right rear swage line, I would use a putty knife or putty spreader and fill the lower edge of the right door. The use 60 or 80 grit paper to reshape that line and smooth it to whatever paper grit you want to prime. Good Luck, Dave.
 

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RAC68

Darth Vader
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I see the misalignment of the swag line between door and rear fender and expect it can be reasonably improved.

I have never had success in adjusting the door to meet the fenders but found it more appropriate to adjust the fenders to meet the door. When the Healey was built on the production line, I was told that the assembler’s primary objective was to align the side panels and door to the swag line. This was done by loosely installing the front fender before tightening down the door (with hinges attached). After a satisfactory alignment of the swag line was achieved, the front fenders were tightened down before addressing the alignment of the rear fender sway line. Since the fenders have quite a bit of free play, the fenders can be moved sufficiently to achieve a satisfactory alignment.

As a result of the fender bead, fender top to shroud was never a concern during production and fender to door top alignment was only infrequently addressed when significantly obvious, any problems were addressed after the swag line was securely established.

I appreciate your desire to produce the best Healey possible. Our Healeys were never perfect when built and, after the tolls of age and use, will be at greater odds with perfection. It is good to strive toward perfection but don’t ever expect to achieve it with sanity.

Enjoy the fun,
Ray (64BJ8P1)
 

kkaa

Jedi Hopeful
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My 2 cents, since the front meets up well to the front wing, I would remove whats holding the rear fender from going up. Just me sure the te swage line, thick aluminum trim that flows from the rear and on top of the door will meet up flush. Below is a pic or the rocker im talking about, made it with the kids by bending and hammering out on a vice.

I think the simplest fix is to cut off the small rocker under the rear fender, re-hang fender and get where you like it, Then, pop your hear into the rear fender looking forward where the rocker is to be, rest it there and mark it. Re-weld, done. That moves up the fender and the rest look awesome. :encouragement: I bet the holes at the bottom are almost where they start, but if not tac them closed, and re drill the two holes.

Kurt

photo 3 (3).jpgphoto 2 (3).jpgphoto 1 (4).jpg



Thanks for the replies so far. Yes the right rear, first photo is the worse. I am doing all the work and in the last year the fenders/door/shrouds have been on and off a zillion times. Maybe time to move on. Only thing left is to weld the rockers on before paint. I played with kkaa's idea and there is no movement left. So as in original post, appears only option is to reshape the door with filler. I would be interested to hear from someone who did that, how they did it, and how successful they were.

As far as keeping the car, I am looking at the car as an retirement annuity, so in a few years after completion and some enjoyment, I will sell it and want to get the most out of it, as we are in it pretty cheap. As I mentioned I bought a new 67 (one of last ones made in 1968) so I am getting up in years. By the way I still have the original invoice when I bought that car, $3750 new! Too bad I did not keep that one.

jjs64bj8
 
Last edited:

rjc157

Jedi Warrior
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To be honest it doesn't look bad at all ,if you don't get started your never going to finish it I don't think its going to affect your resale in a few yrs .these cars are only worth so much
 

RAC68

Darth Vader
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I concur with kkaa, if you are satisfied with the front fender to door alignment, loosen/remove the rear fender bolts and refit the fender to the door’s swag line and not the shroud or top of the door. Modifying bolt holes can gain a little additional fitment flexibility but is usually not necessary.

Again, good luck and enjoy,
Ray (64BJ8P1)
 
OP
J

jjs64bj8

Senior Member
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Again thanks for the additional comments and replies.

Maybe I am missing something, but by loosening the right rear fender and moving it up a bit might bring the swage line more into alignment with the door swage. But it will also move the horizontal portion (as it curves into the shroud) of the fender up the same amount. This will loose the now flush mating of the horizontal portion of the fender to the horizontal portion of the door. These line up very nicely now. The rear fender would be higher than the door. I may be wrong but I think that would stand out a whole lot more than the current swage misalignment as you would be looking right down on it every time the door was opened and closed. What am I missing?

Thanks

jjs64bj8
 

AH100M

Jedi Trainee
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I don't think you're missing anything. Also, the front fender is the hardest panel to adjust because of the sheet metal screws that attach it to the hinge panel and the nuts/bolts that attach the bottom of it to the front part of the sill extension that connects to the inner front fender. The door is really the only panel that is "easy" to adjust.
 

RAC68

Darth Vader
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You are correct. First, the fender bead will break the line of sight and hide a portion of the additional height. Second, by loosening only a few of the bolts that are closest the top of the door and pressing the fender down before retightening, you can usually gain a reasonable alignment of the fender top to door top.

Keep in mind that the Healey’s original body panels were not laser-produced so don’t expect modern unibody perfection. Although a nice design feature, the real use of the fender bead was to break the eye’s gaze so that any slight fender/shroud misalignments were not obvious.

So, as I see it, you have a number of choices. You can keep the fender aligned with the shroud and live with your present swag alignment, align the fender to the swag line and adjust the top fender edge to be as close as practical with the bead in place, recreate the swag line in the fender as Vette describes, or pay a professional body guy to do his magic with modern body putty and finishing products. Other options may exist but I just can’t think of them now.

What ever way you choose, once ready to drive, your enthusiasm and feeling of accomplishment will surely take over.

Good Luck,
Ray (64BJ8P1)
 
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jjs64bj8

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Somewhere I have some 35mm slides of the original 1967 3000 I bought new in may of 1968. If I find them and I have slides of the sides, I will scan and post them. Will be curious to what those body lines look like. Of course back then what would one expect when only paying $3750 for a new one!

I am leaning towards (50/50) reshaping on the right rear on the door and leaving the others alone. Wish me luck.

jjs64bj8
 
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J

jjs64bj8

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DS051202194830.jpgDS051202201818.jpg

I found two scanned 35 mm slides of my then newly purchased 1967 3000 taken probably in 1969-1970. It looks like the drivers side swage was fairly aligned, but the passenger side was not at the rear. Enlarging the originals do reveal the right side was not exactly aligned. In this case the door was higher fender at the rear. In fact it looks almost exactly the same misalignment as the '64 that we are working with now. What a coincidence. The 67 car was only a couple of years old at the time, unmolested, and as one can see, was already starting to rust (in western PA). Sorry for the not so good photos, but the slides have started to fade with time.

So I guess we are all now trying to do better than what was new!

jjs64bj8
 

Brinkerhoff

Jedi Knight
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I'd drop the passenger door just a bit, then if the top of the door doesn't meet the fender take a half round dolly and work that area "up" .
 

glemon

Yoda
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Although it is impossible to tell for sure from the pics, it almost looks as though the swage line is deeper and or bent at a slightly shallower angle on the door as much is it is "off" in alignment, regardless, although I will be the first to admit that my body skills are not the greatest, if you cannot get everything to line up by adjusting the panels no matter how you do it (as you explained) it is really not that hard or that much work to build up an area with a quality filler and make it all line up.

Filler has a bad reputation for a large part because people used to slather it on rusty wheel wells or poorly prepared surfaces and it would rust through or delaminate from the surface after a year or so. An 1/8" or less as would be needed here on a properly prepared surface would last as long as the rest of the paint job, no problem.
 
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jjs64bj8

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glemon hit the nail on the head! Indeed the swage on the 1964 door is of a different profile (slope part is a bit longer) than the front fender and rear fender on the passenger side. This profile difference visually adds to the mismatch.

As indicated in one of my earlier responses, I am not going to mess with the body alignment (door gaps and flushness) as it has taken a couple of lifetimes to get it decent. But I am going to attempt as he suggests to "re-profile" the swage on the rear part of the right side door. The door is original from the factory.

jjs64bj8
 
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