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What was wrong with the 1500 mechanical fuel pump?

regularman

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I drove many cars with mechanical fuel pumps that never gave me a minutes' trouble. On mine I see there is an electric fuel pump and a blanking plate on the motor. I am just wondering what the problem was. Seems like the old mechanical ones were a whole lot more reliable than the electric.
 

Sarastro

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Well, your experience has been good, but not everyone's. Electrical things are inherently more reliable than mechanical ones, and easier to control. But I doubt that's the whole reason.

If you really want to know why changes in manufactured products are made, follow the money. The decisions are 99% financial. Of course, there may be technical advantages to a change, which is great, but that's not what motivates them.

The real problem shows up when some change is cheaper but not as good. Then, at least in the US, the mentality is to make it as cheap as possible while still of good enough quality that the customer accepts it. In some other countries, in my experience, the decision is weighted more toward a minimal standard of quality. They won't go below that standard, even if the item could be a lot cheaper. Just a different way of looking at things.

Of course, there are other reasons for changes. One is to keep up with the competition--if the competitor has convinced the world that electric fuel pumps are better, it becomes a selling point. Which means that you can sell more cars, i.e., get more money, even if the item isn't cheaper to make. So, it's still fundamentally an economic decision.
 

JPSmit

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Nothing wrong with the 1500 pump as far as I'm aware. Mine keeps pumping and pumping. BTW, they are year specific if you decide to replace it. As I'm typing, I'm wondering if it was switched due to vapour lock. with the cat under the ZS, the 1500's are more prone than 1275's.
 

dklawson

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The mechanical pumps do wear and fail. As Steve said, at the point of failure what to install may be an economic or as J-P said, a performance decision.

I have an electric Facet pump supplying the Spitfire 1500. In my case, the mechanical pump failed when the removable cover gasket "shrunk" allowing the pump to draw in lots of air... and leak fuel. The mechanical pump also gets hot being mounted on the block.

Heat and vapor lock are less a problem on the 1500 installed in a Spitfire than a Midget. Search this forum for old threads by "BigJones" (a.k.a. Adrian). Like your new project, his Midget has the 1500 and he has been dealing with vapor lock for quite a while. I think he finally gave up and switched to the electric pump to eliminate the problem.
 

sparkydave

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Mine had big problems with vapor locking. On a hot day I couldn't drive more than about 15 minutes before it would start stalling. It was bad enough that when it stalled, I could take the cover off the pump and hear fuel boiling. Later 1500s ('78-'79) had a thick spacer between the pump and the engine block, apparently to help insulate the pump from the engine heat. Once I put the electric pump in and bypassed the mechanical one, no more vapor locking.
 

Morris

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My vote: there was a high failure rate on everything on the 1500 (including fuel pumps.) To quote an article I once read, "The 1500 was built at time when UK auto workers spent more days on strike than they did on the line." In the days before the internet, when a person would be laughed at for asking for MG parts at the corner parts store, it was just cheaper/faster/easier to buy the cheap electric fuel pump the store had on hand.
 

Scott_Hower

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I (respectfully) don't buy the assertion that mechanical fuel pumps are failure prone. Small block (and big) Chevys have used AC pumps forever and they just work.

I also don't buy the assertion that 99% of manufacturing changes are driven by cost. If that were the case, we'd all still be driving pushrod engines to keep the accountants happy. Innovation and competition drive manufacturing step change.
 

bthompson

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Mine had a Facet rattlecube installed too; the mechanical pump is still there but bypassed. One thing I had read about the 1500 pumps was that when the diaphragm within failed, it pumped fuel into the crankcase. Perhaps that (probable old wives' tale) encouraged folks to switch over before Something Bad happened...
 

JPSmit

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Morris said:
My vote: there was a high failure rate on everything on the 1500 (including fuel pumps.) To quote an article I once read, "The 1500 was built at time when UK auto workers spent more days on strike than they did on the line." In the days before the internet, when a person would be laughed at for asking for MG parts at the corner parts store, it was just cheaper/faster/easier to buy the cheap electric fuel pump the store had on hand.

Not sure I buy your reasoning (OK I don't
grin.gif
) Yes in the 70's there was huge labour unrest and cars were both poorly designed and constructed, but, that doesn't account for a fuel pump made somewhere else and installed in the car. At least not after the first year. That being said, ALL our cars were not as well made as cars today - hence almost all parts wore out sooner (engines rebuilt at 60k or less, brakes wear sooner etc.) But, I don't think mechanical pumps in 1500's were any better or worse (unlike thrust bearing which are a design flaw)
 

dklawson

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bthompson said:
One thing I had read about the 1500 pumps was that when the diaphragm within failed, it pumped fuel into the crankcase. Perhaps that (probable old wives' tale) encouraged folks to switch over before Something Bad happened...

That is no different on the BMC A-series engines. If the diaphragm fails, fuel can get into the crankcase on either of these engines. These failures do happen but I think it fair to say that it is NOT common.

One other thing that is nice about an electric pump is that on cars that sit for long periods between uses, your float bowls fill up when you turn the ignition on. You don't have to crank the engine over to fill the carbs with gas.
 

Morris

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There is only one way to settle this JP—Indian leg wrestling match!
 

drooartz

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dklawson said:
That is no different on the BMC A-series engines. If the diaphragm fails, fuel can get into the crankcase on either of these engines. These failures do happen but I think it fair to say that it is NOT common.

This happened to my Bugeye -- in the late 1960s to a previous owner. Gas in the crankcase from a failed mechanical pump, so he parked the car for the next 30+ years. Probably saved the car. :smile:
 

jlaird

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Saving the BE would be giving it to Jack. LOL
 

JPSmit

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Morris said:
There is only one way to settle this JP—Indian leg wrestling match!

no arm wrestling? thumb wrestling?
 
OP
regularman

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I was thinking mine was a 78 but today I just went to the dmv to get it titled in my name and found out it is a 77. Not that it matters but I didn't look at the title. That means it will be 35 next year and won't need an inspection. State law is actually 35 years from date of manufacture so it might already be an antique.
 

dklawson

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Just take your time on fixing her up. By spring she'll be 35 and you'll be free and clear.
 

Sarastro

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Scott_Hower said:
I also don't buy the assertion that 99% of manufacturing changes are driven by cost. If that were the case, we'd all still be driving pushrod engines to keep the accountants happy. Innovation and competition drive manufacturing step change.

Well, you may not buy it, but it's axiomatic to anyone who has worked in a manufacturing environment. You'd be amazed at how much effort goes into even seemingly trivial cost reductions, and how severely small differences in cost can affect marketability and profitability.

Also, the pushrod engine is not a great example. Overhead cams are a cost improvement over pushrod engines, as they eliminate a lot of parts, and parts count is cost. Not only for the parts themselves, but for installation time, kitting, cataloging, ordering, material qualification, source inspection, receiving inspection, and on and on. My 72 Pinto had an overhead cam engine, and I'm sure that no decision in the design of that car favored innovation over cost. 99% of its customers had no clue about the OHC, so anything innovative about it certainly wasn't a selling point.

Innovation and competition are definitely drivers, though, but only (1) within cost constraints, and (2) when they can be a selling point. Both of these are fundamentally economic.
 
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regularman

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Sarastro said:
Scott_Hower said:
I also don't buy the assertion that 99% of manufacturing changes are driven by cost. If that were the case, we'd all still be driving pushrod engines to keep the accountants happy. Innovation and competition drive manufacturing step change.

Well, you may not buy it, but it's axiomatic to anyone who has worked in a manufacturing environment. You'd be amazed at how much effort goes into even seemingly trivial cost reductions, and how severely small differences in cost can affect marketability and profitability.

Also, the pushrod engine is not a great example. Overhead cams are a cost improvement over pushrod engines, as they eliminate a lot of parts, and parts count is cost. Not only for the parts themselves, but for installation time, kitting, cataloging, ordering, material qualification, source inspection, receiving inspection, and on and on. My 72 Pinto had an overhead cam engine, and I'm sure that no decision in the design of that car favored innovation over cost. 99% of its customers had no clue about the OHC, so anything innovative about it certainly wasn't a selling point.

Innovation and competition are definitely drivers, though, but only (1) within cost constraints, and (2) when they can be a selling point. Both of these are fundamentally economic.
I had a 72 pinto with a high lift cam. I learned to put a timing belt on along the side of the road in the dark :wink:
 

Scott_Hower

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Sarastro said:
Scott_Hower said:
I also don't buy the assertion that 99% of manufacturing changes are driven by cost. If that were the case, we'd all still be driving pushrod engines to keep the accountants happy. Innovation and competition drive manufacturing step change.

Well, you may not buy it, but it's axiomatic to anyone who has worked in a manufacturing environment. You'd be amazed at how much effort goes into even seemingly trivial cost reductions, and how severely small differences in cost can affect marketability and profitability.

I am well versed in manufacturing and continuous improvement; hold belts in CI/Six Sigma/lean manufacturing. I also hold an MBA.

I stand by my statement that the MARKET drives manufacturing step change, not the cost accountants. Cost focus drives marginal improvements in manufacturing productivity, but the market will determine what you're making, not your accountants and CI people - they can only assist with the how.
 
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