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TR2/3/3A New TR3 Owner, Water Pump

White79MGB

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Hi all,

I just acquired a 58 TR3 (in addtion to my MGB).

I have a pretty big water leak at the water pump, I can't tell if it is from the pump or the chamber that the pump sits on, so I guess to be safe I will change all the gaskets. I would appreciate a walkthrough from the experts here about TR3 water pump replacement - I've done it on an MGB but the TR looks a little more involved. Thanks in advance for all your help!

Tim
 

Banjo

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It can be changed without taking the pulley off. It's tight, you have to use an open end wrench and come in on the bolts from the side.
But everything else is very basic.
Remove the belt,
remove the bolts,
and you can eek the pump off the front.
 

Alan_Myers

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[ QUOTE ]
It can be changed without taking the pulley off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Banjo is right... in most cases. Originally there was one bolt that sits partly behind the pulley and can require the pulley to be removed... sometimes. Often, if the pump has been changed in the past (and most have been in the 40-50 year life of the car), that bolt was very commonly changed out for a nut on a stud (the other two mountings are already nuts on studs). It's easy to tell just by looking at all the fasteners behind the pulley. If all are studs with nuts, it will be obvious. There is only just enough room behind the pulley for a nut and lock washer. So often these are installed with a bit of Locktite that might make the entire stud come out of the block. If so, once the pump is off the car clamp the stud with Vice Grips and try removing the nut again. A little heat is sometimes needed to get certain types of Locktite to release.

Note, if you do find a bolt and happen to need to remove a stubborn pulley, don't use one of those two, three or four-legged pullers that hook over just the edge. The pulley is cast metal and it almost certainly will break at the edge, and you'll be shopping for a replacement. Instead, take the pump and pulley assembly to a machine shop that might have a collar-type puller, which will be able to remove the stuck pulley without damaging it. The pump housing itself doesn't need to be completely removed when changing the pump. It's held on by a fourth bolt.

In fact, not all pumps even have removeable pulleys. Some are simply pressed on. The removeable ones will have a nut (usually a Nylock) at the very tip of the pulley. The non-removeable just have the flush end of the shaft, i.e. no nut. The non-removeable-pulley pumps were (and are still) common aftermarket replacements. If this type pump is used, that one partially hidden bolt absolutely had to have already been replaced with a stud and nut, or there would be no way to fully install the pump.

The original pumps with removeable pulleys were a direct carryover from the tractor engine. In fact, they were user rebuildable and parts to do it yourself, or factory rebuilt units, used to be widely available at any Massey Ferguson tractor dealer, often a whole lot cheaper than the same parts at auto parts stores or Triumph dealers. I haven't checked lately, but you might see if there is a local Massey Ferguson dealer, if you need a pump or parts (including gaskets).

A final clue to the pump's age, the original pumps (at least up through TR4) had a grease zerk to supply an occasional squirt of lubrication to the bearings. Nearly all replacement pumps over the years lack the zerk and some don't even have the flat in the casting where it would have been fitted (others do have the flat, and I've even heard of people seeking these out and then epoxying fake zerks onto them, for sake of "authenticity".) Modern pumps don't use or need any bearing lubrication .

As Banjo said, it's a pretty straightforward and easy job, plus replacement parts are widely available. One last thing to watch out for if you do need a replacement is that many of the current crof pumps seem to have a problem with their casting, that causes the inside of the pulley to rub in certain areas on the housing. Watch for this and if necessary grind the pump housing a little to create some more clearance. (The last pump I bought was an uprated one from British Frame and Engine and the housing had been carefully machined so that there were no clearance problems at all, but these high performance pumps are also quite a bit more expensive.)

Hope this helps!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
OP
White79MGB

White79MGB

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Alan,
Thanks for all your help, this will be a good first project for the TR3. It appears that I have an original pump because it has the zerk fitting. I just wanted to ask whether or not this original pump has any value to a collector for rebuilding? I don't want to throw it away if someone could use it.

Perhaps our paths will cross sometime, I am located in Walnut Creek CA.

Regards,
Tim
 

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PeterK

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Don't forget to protect the radiator with a covering of cardboard over the fins while you're working on the pump.

Both new pumps I purchased have been made by Country and have to machining to clear the pulley. From Moss.
 

Geo Hahn

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[ QUOTE ]
...to remove a stubborn pulley, don't use one of those two, three or four-legged pullers that hook over just the edge. The pulley is cast metal and it almost certainly will break at the edge, and you'll be shopping for a replacement. Instead, take the pump and pulley assembly to a machine shop that might have a collar-type puller...

[/ QUOTE ]

Alternately, I made up a tool for this purpose using some angle iron and 3/8" bolts. Works great, compact enough to pull the pulley with the pump and radiator still in place:


waterpump.JPG



Zerked pumps look nice but finding rebuild parts can be a problem. For the original look I just took the threaded portion off a zerk and JBWelded it to that boss on the pump body. One of my TRs has a functioning zerk... one is the dummy. I doubt anyone can tell which is which w/o hooking up a grease gun to it.
 

DavidApp

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Hello Rayantoky

I have just replaced my pump with one from The Roadster Factory. The pump is the 5 Vane pump HP106969 and the pulley is 105537. The 5 vane pump has a larger diameter thread than the original pump. The old pump is on the left in the photo. The shaft size is the same. You need to be sure to use the thick washer that comes with the pump. Also check the key fit in both the shaft and pulley. I ended up buying a new key because the supplied key was lose in the shaft. The pulley should be a push fit on the shaft.

David
Water pump.jpg
 

sp53

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Awhile back like 10 years ago, I purchased the Moss pump and a pulley from hem because I knew what most likely I was in for with those things and wanted to get the pulley and pump together, so if I had a problem they could deal with the fitting of pulley and pump. I put the old away. Last winter I rebuilt the old one. I had to take it to a machine shop to get the pulley off. I waited as the guy did it, and it kicked his butt: he finally heated up and got the 2 apart, and this guy had all the toys plus he was very good.

steve
steve
 

Got_All_4

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https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcf/showthread.php?112686-Water-Pump-quot-Here-I-Go-Again-quot

Never through anything away even if you replace that pump. It can be rebuilt for a back up. Lots of discussion lately here about the 5 vane pumps. I was one of them that started it. Your asking for trouble if you get one. DavidApp just eluded to the problem. The key way in the shaft is smaller then the key way in the pulley. Initially tightens up but in 400 miles and it did it twice. The pulley comes loose and the key way wears out the pulley key way. The pump shaft was so badly worn the second time the pump and pulley had to be replaced. So do your self a favor and get an original style 4 vane and you'll be fine. Make sure the pulley takes some effort to slide onto the the shaft too. Should be a tight fit. Check out the link to the tread above.
 

DavidApp

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I got a key from ACE hardware that was a good key fit in the pulley but too tight to go in the shaft. Then carefully filed the key to fit the shaft. Taking the same amount of both sides and only filing where the key went in the shaft.

On the original pumps the threaded section is a lot smaller than the bore of the pulley so a special thick washer should be used. Don't ask me how I know.

David
 

DavidApp

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Another thing to consider is the pulley fit on the pump shaft without the key. I had put an old pulley on a new pump. There was some play in the pulley shaft fit.
The belt overhangs the mounting point on the shaft a long way so a small amount pf play can cause problems.

David
 

davidzeeso

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Hello Rayantoky

I have just replaced my pump with one from The Roadster Factory. The pump is the 5 Vane pump HP106969 and the pulley is 105537. The 5 vane pump has a larger diameter thread than the original pump. The old pump is on the left in the photo. The shaft size is the same. You need to be sure to use the thick washer that comes with the pump. Also check the key fit in both the shaft and pulley. I ended up buying a new key because the supplied key was lose in the shaft. The pulley should be a push fit on the shaft.

David
> https://bpnorthwest.com/ Water Pump Lucas Brand TR3, TR4, TR4A < , $47.24 on 02/28/2024
 
Last edited:

Sarastro

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Backing up David's comments, here's my experience with the "uprated" 5-vane pump:

> Engine Externals < (Scroll down a bit to the section on the water pump.)

Of all the problems with it, the greatest concern, for me, was the ill-fitting Woodruff key. Because of that, I will never get another one. If the cooling system is in good shape, an uprated pump should not be necessary, anyway.
 

mctriumph

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The problems with woodruff keys ends with a drop of metal bonding epoxy. This will often
make good even the most suspicious keys. Lasts forever. Just did it on one of the 5 vane pumps
,loose key would not even allow the pulley to go on without rotating out of the slot.
Mad dog
 

Popeye

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The problems with woodruff keys ends with a drop of metal bonding epoxy. This will often
make good even the most suspicious keys. Lasts forever. Just did it on one of the 5 vane pumps
,loose key would not even allow the pulley to go on without rotating out of the slot.
Mad dog
Never thought of this, thank you! Assume you need to wait for the epoxy to fully cure before operation? (Assuming the purpose of the epoxy is to fill the void between key and slot?

At the same time, getting the right key should not be too hard - an (slightly) oversized one can be filed to fit.
 

Got_All_4

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I did the epoxy thing with my five vane pump. For I time I thought I whooped it. However I started hearing those noises again. I was told by the experts mechanics that over time heat brakes down the adhesive bonds and works it way loose again. Just do the right thing and ether send it to a machine shop and get it machined or buy a matched set like I did. No problems for thousands of miles.
 

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mctriumph

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The metal bonding epoxy is temp sensitive ABOVE 300 degrees . When your water pump gets that hot,
I am sure that you will have other problems to concern yourself with.....
Mad dog
 
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