Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 93

Thread: Boeing accidents

The Pub is: Forum to generally shoot the breeze. It is NOT: a debate forum (NO Politics, religion, or controversial topics.) Keep it clean, fun and lite!

  1. #1
    Luke Skywalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    stamford, CT
    Posts
    1,913
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    12
    Thanked in
    12 Posts

    Boeing accidents

    A plane flying by computer - what could go wrong? I say this - put the pilot back in the cockpit-not a systems manager. And now they want to have self-driving cars as well. You couldn't pay me enough to fly in one of those. If its not an Airbus, I'm not going. The fleet must be grounded until the fault is found and corrected. I feel for the 300 plus families killed by a computer malfunction.

  2. #2
    Yoda TOC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Floe Ice, Antarctica
    Posts
    5,953
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    12
    Thanked in
    12 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    you've got that backwards. Hairbuss has been fly by wire with computer direct control for what, 20 years? BIG issues, from Paris Air Show to Hair France in the Atlantic.

    After Death Cruiser 10, Hairbuss is the last manufacturer I would ever fly on.

  3. #3
    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Sunny So California
    Posts
    18,884
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    66
    Thanked in
    64 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    All big planes are computer controlled these days, as are most cars and trucks.

    From what I've read, the 737 Max 8 problem is almost certainly a combination of sensor failures, poor pilot education, and perhaps poor programming. Not a "computer failure" as such, the computer was doing exactly what it was programmed to do with the information it had.

    The pilots certainly had the option of flying manually; in fact several American pilots did exactly that after the autopilot malfunctioned. Boggles my mind that any pilot would leave the autopilot enabled after it malfunctioned not once but several times in a row; but that is apparently what happened.

    If the cruise control on your car started going full throttle for no apparent reason, would you keep using it???
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

  4. #4
    Great Pumpkin DrEntropy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Elsinore, DK
    Posts
    32,637
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    13
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    47
    Thanked in
    46 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    I'll wait for the FAA analysis to learn what chain of events led to this tragedy. These things are almost always a series of smaller events, leading up to the catastrophe. So far we hear of uprated engines and inadequate pilot training, hinky autopilot behavior, etc. We'll see.
    '64 MGB, '67 Lotus Elan S-3 DHC,'69 Lotus Elan +2
    '78 Alfa Romeo Spider-undergoing surgery: O=\*/=O
    '84 300D Turbo-"Diesela"-Now my Daily: Oo|≣|oO
    '02 Toyota Camry- SWMBO's 'new-to-her' Daily. <sigh>
    Chaos & Mayhem PTY, LTD..C.I.O. & Floor Sweepervisor

  5. #5
    Great Pumpkin NutmegCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Connecticut USA
    Posts
    10,707
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    37
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    73
    Thanked in
    66 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    A friend is a retired AA pilot - 40 years experience from DC-6s through 737s and 747s.

    He mentioned that there's often no *one single off switch* for the automated control systems. You can't just turn *off* the autopilot, as there may be one to seven different autopilot systems running at once. If there's a problem, you have to figure out which part of the system isn't working right.

    And if "upgraded software" is introduced, there's not always clear written (and/or demonstrated) instruction on the change, even in simulator training. And simulator training isn't always required for the change.

    And if there's a hardware problem discovered in October 2018, but changes are only required "within six months" ... you may have a big problem.

    As he says ... "It's complicated".
    Mac & Phyllis Take a Trip: http://nutmegflyer.com/trip-details-daily-updates/
    History: 1976 MGB, 1959 Triumph TR3A, 1960 Mercedes-Benz 190b, 1958 Rambler American.
    Current: 1953 MG TD27318.

  6. #6
    Yoda waltesefalcon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fletcher, Oklahoma
    Posts
    5,348
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    328
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    From what I've heard pilots have been complaining about the automated systems in the plane in question for awhile now. It seems that possibly Boeing put too much trust into one automated system that the pilot has no control over. The FAA investigation will hopefully shed some more light on the issue.
    Cheers,
    Walter
    52 International L110
    61 International C112
    68 Cadillac Coupe DeVille

  7. #7
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    124
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    If the below is true, Boeing is in for a rough time...

    https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/14/bo...to-the-pilots/

  8. #8
    Great Pumpkin NutmegCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Connecticut USA
    Posts
    10,707
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    37
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    73
    Thanked in
    66 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by charlie74 View Post
    If the below is true, Boeing is in for a rough time...

    https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/14/bo...to-the-pilots/
    Yep - that's what I was talking about. That system has been questionable for over six months.

    oy
    Mac & Phyllis Take a Trip: http://nutmegflyer.com/trip-details-daily-updates/
    History: 1976 MGB, 1959 Triumph TR3A, 1960 Mercedes-Benz 190b, 1958 Rambler American.
    Current: 1953 MG TD27318.

  9. #9
    Great Pumpkin DNK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Mount PLeasant SC
    Posts
    17,450
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    This is all pretty funny
    Randall is the only one with a clue
    Don
    "Stick a Wedge in it!"
    Mount Pleasant,SC

  10. #10
    Yoda waltesefalcon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Fletcher, Oklahoma
    Posts
    5,348
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    328
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    "As he says ... "It's complicated"."

    Is it too complicated to fly?
    Cheers,
    Walter
    52 International L110
    61 International C112
    68 Cadillac Coupe DeVille

  11. #11
    Great Pumpkin DNK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Mount PLeasant SC
    Posts
    17,450
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by waltesefalcon View Post
    "As he says ... "It's complicated"."

    Is it too complicated to fly?
    For you and me?
    YES
    Don
    "Stick a Wedge in it!"
    Mount Pleasant,SC

  12. #12
    Yoda PAUL161's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Locust Grove, Oklahoma
    Posts
    9,169
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    27
    Thanked in
    25 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    To my understanding, those Ethiopian pilots only had approx 200 hrs in the 737s, I think here they require at least 1500 hrs. PJ

    Remember, Never Forget
    We Live In The Land of The Free
    Because of The Brave

    How good it feels, the hand of an old friend! Longfellow

  13. #13
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    124
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Not entirely true. The FO was low-time but not the Captain. Thats not uncommon, even in the west.

  14. #14
    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Sunny So California
    Posts
    18,884
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    66
    Thanked in
    64 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL161 View Post
    To my understanding, those Ethiopian pilots only had approx 200 hrs in the 737s, I think here they require at least 1500 hrs. PJ
    Not clear to me that it would have helped. This 737 (the "Max 8" version) is apparently different than all the others in this regard. (In particular, how to disable MCAS when it malfunctions, since the other 737s don't even have MCAS.) And the difference only shows up in case of what appears to be multiple sensor failures.

    Yet Boeing has apparently insisted they are "the same", so retraining is not required to move from another 737 to the Max 8. To support that position, they left out the information on how to deal with MCAS from the "owner's manual".

    I don't doubt there is more to the story; for example it seems like an awfully high rate of failure. MCAS smells to me like a band-aid they slapped over a design flaw while trying to conceal that the flaw existed. With the FAA being run by a former lobbyist, I'm also not real confident they will tell us the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    But hopefully, their counterparts in other countries will.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

  15. #15
    Great Pumpkin DNK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Mount PLeasant SC
    Posts
    17,450
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    I think what you are referring to was that the co pilot on had 200 hrs in flight total
    Is what I heard
    Don
    "Stick a Wedge in it!"
    Mount Pleasant,SC

  16. #16
    Great Pumpkin DNK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Mount PLeasant SC
    Posts
    17,450
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Lets see 40,000+ flights
    About 50 questions
    that comes to .00125
    That my friends is a small number
    And that doesn't include the world wide fleet
    Don
    "Stick a Wedge in it!"
    Mount Pleasant,SC

  17. #17
    Great Pumpkin NutmegCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Connecticut USA
    Posts
    10,707
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    37
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    73
    Thanked in
    66 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    "If the cruise control on your car started going full throttle for no apparent reason, would you keep using it??? "

    Probably keep using it if you (1) didn't know that was the problem, and (2) you didn't know all the procedures to turn it off, and (3) you didn't get training in the system changes.


    Mac & Phyllis Take a Trip: http://nutmegflyer.com/trip-details-daily-updates/
    History: 1976 MGB, 1959 Triumph TR3A, 1960 Mercedes-Benz 190b, 1958 Rambler American.
    Current: 1953 MG TD27318.

  18. #18
    Jedi Hopeful
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    124
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by DNK View Post
    Lets see 40,000+ flights
    About 50 questions
    that comes to .00125
    That my friends is a small number
    And that doesn't include the world wide fleet
    2 accidents in 5 months with 350-ish fatalities seems like a lot to me...

  19. #19
    Great Pumpkin NutmegCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Connecticut USA
    Posts
    10,707
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    37
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    73
    Thanked in
    66 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Quote Originally Posted by charlie74 View Post
    2 accidents in 5 months with 350-ish fatalities seems like a lot to me...
    Me too.
    Mac & Phyllis Take a Trip: http://nutmegflyer.com/trip-details-daily-updates/
    History: 1976 MGB, 1959 Triumph TR3A, 1960 Mercedes-Benz 190b, 1958 Rambler American.
    Current: 1953 MG TD27318.

  20. #20
    Jedi Knight
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA
    Posts
    952
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    4
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    3 Posts

    Re: Boeing accidents

    Let’s also not forget that the fatal accidents happened at low altitude - ie little time to react. Pilots are hours of boredom punctuated by seconds of panic (not literally, but you get the idea... very little goes big-time wrong.) Who knows how many incidents occurred at altitude where adequate time was had.

    I am an aerospace engineer, but have no clue what specifically went wrong. Waiting for the full NSTB report.
    Mike
    66 TR4A

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •