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Spitfire Electric Radiator Fan

FlyingCat

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Please pardon me, but I need to bounce this off somebody else to see if I'm right. I've been trying to figure out the engine wiring on my 1980 Triumph Spitfire (federal) using wiring guides from Canley and Haynes. Right now I'm focusing on the electric radiator fan. I'm pitching the fan that came with the car and replacing it with a Hayden fan – far more efficient, and far less bulky, and it doesn't require a bracket.

The Electrical Radiator Fan Relay seems to control everything, and I'm assuming it's somewhere near the radiator, though not necessarily. There are four male electrical connections on the Electric Radiator Fan Relay. I am assuming there is one connector each for the four following leads, though I wouldn't have a clue which wire goes to which connector. Those four leads are:

1) The Power lead – a purple/green unfused wire that originates from brown wires, which then go to many places, but mainly the ignition starter switch. So when the car is on, the fan has power.

2) The Thermo Switch, which is connected to the top of the Radiator and tells the Fan Relay when to turn on the Radiator Fan.

3) The Electric Radiator Fan. It carries the signal from the switch to the fan.

4) The fourth electrical connection goes to what appears to be a terminal (or a reply coil, whatever that is), where two wires split off (which could be as simple as two wires connected to one female coupling). Those wires are:

a) a white wire that goes to the distributor, as well as various lights.

b) another white wire that goes to the drive resistor, and from the drive resistor, changing colours to white/blue, also to the distributor.

I'm guessing the drive resistor is there to make the fan last longer when it stops and starts. I'm further guessing that it goes through the distributor because it's using that as a gauge on how fast the car is running, or simply lets it know when the car isn't running (but still is on), or allows it to run after the can has been shut off but isn't cool yet. Does anybody know which? Regardless, it explains some of those errant wires.

So here are my other questions:

Is the above correct? If so, which wire goes where on the Fan Relay?

I originally thought I could just avoid a lot of that and have the fan run continuously while the car is running, but now I'm thinking that's not a good idea, namely because there would be no way to keep the fan running if the radiator still needs to be cooled but I'm not wanting to sit out in a parking lot until it is... maybe. Does that sound right?

I appreciate any help I can get figuring this out. Thanks!
 

TR3driver

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Ok, I'm not sure if this matches the diagram you're looking at; but I think it's correct:
https://www.triumphspitfire.com/images/wiring/80diagram.jpg

http://www.triumphspitfire.com/images/wiring/80chart.jpg

1) Power for the fan motor comes from brown wires, which are unswitched, unfused power. Although not marked in this diagram, that wire would probably be brown. It shows a separate fuse just for the fan, the wire from that fuse to the relay is purple with green. These wires are hot whether the key is on or not.

2) Right.

3) Right.

4) The white wire is hot whenever the ignition is on. The drive resistor has nothing to do with the fan (and it not logically in the circuit to the fan); instead it limits current to the ignition module/distributor. There is no fuse for this circuit.

I don't know the pinout for your relay without seeing what you have. Older Lucas relays are typically marked C1, C2, W1, W2; but I believe they eventually started following the Bosch system, meaning the 4 terminals would be 30, 85, 86, 87. Or you might have a replacement.

However, some quick tests with an ohmmeter will tell you enough to get by. Measure the resistance between each pair of pins. By that I mean (for example), put one lead on the first terminal and then take a reading with the other lead to each of the other 3 terminals. Then one lead on the next terminal, and take a reading to the remaining two. Finally, first lead on the third terminal and reading to the last terminal.

You should find one pair of pins that show something in the neighborhood of 100 ohms. Those two pins are W1 and W2. (Doesn't really matter which is which.)
Then the other two pins are C1 and C2 (again, doesn't really matter which is which).

Now, the wire in (1) above goes to C1.

The wire in (2) above goes to W2.

(3) goes to C2

(4) goes to W1

The stock setup (and the wiring above) does not make provision for the fan to run if the key is off. Although the relay contacts have power all the time (wire 1), the coil gets power from the key, so the relay will only activate when the key is on, and the thermo switch calls for the fan to run. If you would like to try letting the fan run with the key off (which may result in a dead battery), you can try disconnecting the white wire from the relay (tape/tie it so it can't touch anything else) and running a jumper from C1 to W1.

I hope that is clear, feel free to ask again if I've mucked it up.
 
OP
FlyingCat

FlyingCat

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Thank you for your reply, but I'm still a bit confused.

I get what you are saying for the first three wires, and that all makes sense. And the instructions you included on how to tell which terminal is which on the Fan Relay is spot on. But I'm really confused by that fourth wire, the white one (or ones). I was already using the schematic you included. It's from Haynes, which I've included below.

RadiatorFan.jpg

I've highlighted all the wires going to the Fan Relay in green, mostly because I don't have a brown highlighter, and a white highlighter would be pointless. There's no problem with locating the brown wire (the one to the left) or adding an in-line fuse.

But notice how the white wire (to the right) immediately "splits" after it leaves the Fan Relay, there at that circle (whatever that is, which I've circled in pink).

One white wire goes up to a circle with a backslash in it (once again, whatever that symbol means, circled in purple), and from there "splits," with one wire heading to what appears to be a fuse (circled in orange), and the other going to the distributor.

The other white wire goes straight to the drive resistor, and from the drive resistor, after passing through another of those circles with a backslash in it, also to the distributor.

Currently I have no drive resistor on my car, but getting one wouldn't be a problem, and I could wire the whole thing pretty much as it appears on schematic. Should I? As well, I can't find a solid source on-line that explains those symbols worth a hoot, especially relative to my Spitfire. I've attached below those symbols I think I've figured out (bottom row), and those I haven't (top row). I'd appreciate any help I can get on those.

WiringSymbols.jpg

And, finally, though moving away from the radiator fan, the schematic shows a ballast resistor wire, but no ballast resistor. There was a ballast resistor with my car, though not attached (which means it may not even go to it). However, I checked the starting coil with a voltage meter, and it indicates that I need a ballast resistor, so I put it on (the ballast resistor reads "good," too). It goes from the starter solenoid to the coil. The green wire was already there, with one end on the solenoid and the other on the coil, but it was cut in-between, which is why I thought the ballast resistor went where that "cut" was. Does that sound right?

Ballast Resistor 03.jpg


Thank you for all your help!
 

TR3driver

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I believe the larger circles with the funny patterns refer to multi-way connectors, with the pattern indicating which connector. One of my Stag manuals at home has a legend (for the Stag diagram of course), which says things like "multi-way located at base of steering column". Each instance of a circle with the same pattern indicates a pair of pins (one male, one female) in the connector.

But a lot of information like that was simply deleted from the later manuals, instead of being updated to reflect the wiring changes. That may be why the Haynes doesn't have it, it wasn't in the factory material that they copied.

The other symbol in your top row I believe represents a 4-way bullet sleeve with only 3 wires inserted. The sleeve connects all 4 openings together, but the 4th opening is left open. Sometimes, you'll see 2 wires (for a 2-way sleeve) or 4 wires.

The white wire is just daisy-chained at the empty round circle (probably two wires crimped into the same pin on the multi-way). The significant path, from the relay point of view, goes up to the circle with the backslash, then down to a small circle (which I believe represents wires joined directly together, often inside the harness) then back up to an open large circle and then down to the switch. When the switch is in 'Run' or 'Start', it supplies power to that terminal from the brown wire that goes down to another open large circle, and off to join with a bunch of other brown wires (including one from the hot terminal on the starter solenoid).
 

TR3driver

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IIRC, you said you had an earlier distributor, and points. If so, there is no need for the drive resistor, or for the white and white/blue (WU) wires to the distributor. Just connect the WB wire to the side terminal (which should connect it to the moving contact on the points and the condenser). The W and WU wires were to provide power to the electronic ignition module inside the original distributor (which isn't shown on the diagram).

Your 1.5 ohm coil can continue to get power through the WY wire from the starter relay, which means that normally (when the relay is not energized), it is getting power through the resistor wire. As long as the resistor wire is in good condition, there is no need for any other resistor.

When you get it all connected, a simple test is to turn the key to Run, turn the engine until the points are closed, then check the voltage from each of the small coil terminals to ground. You should find around 6 to 8 volts on one terminal, and less than 1 volt on the other. For a further check, turn the engine until the points are open and check the voltages again. Now you should find 12v on both terminals.
 
OP
FlyingCat

FlyingCat

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I'm assuming I have an earlier distributor and points, but I may not. I've attached a couple of pictures of my distributor here. The first one shows the outside, including that wire that goes nowhere. It appears to be WB, but it's hard to tell, even in person (it could be WU). The second shows the inside. What is that cylindrical thing with the black wire that connects to the WU / WB wire? Is that an electronic ignition module? If it is, what does that change?

IMG_3109.jpg
IMG_3110.jpg


So let me see if I've got this right. As things stand now I don't need the ballast resistor at all, going from the solenoid to the coil. Do I still need that orange wire that runs between the solenoid and the coil, only without the ballast resistor? Would it matter if I just left the ballast resistor there?

From the Fan Relay, I only need one wire, the white one (which I've highlighted in green below), and all those wires that are highlighted in orange, as well as the drive resistor, are not necessary at all.

RadiatorFan02.jpg

When you say to connect the WB wire to the side terminal, what do you mean by "side terminal"?

Thanks for all your help. The wiring diagrams are a bit abstract, at best, and the parts catalogs only show the parts, but not where their wires go (if they give any instructions at all), so it all can be very confusing for those of us who have never done this before. Once again, thanks.
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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My apologies, I expected there to be a terminal where the wire sticks out if the distributor. My bad. Ignore what I said about the terminal, and connect the WB to the coil.

Those are points, the round thing is known as the condenser and it is essential when using points.

Yes, the wires in orange are not needed when running points.

Gotta go, more later
 
OP
FlyingCat

FlyingCat

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I think I got this right...

There are four male electrical connections on the Electrical Radiator Fan Relay. There is one connector each for the four following leads:

1) Power for the fan motor – a brown wire, which is unswitched and unfused power. There is an in-line fuse. The wire from that fuse to the relay is purple with green (or not, being that there is no wire). These wires are hot whether the key is on or not.


2) The Thermo Switch, which is connected to the top of the Radiator and tells the Fan Relay when to turn on the Radiator Fan.

3) The Electric Radiator Fan. It carries the signal from the switch to the fan.

4) Any white wire, which is hot whenever the ignition is on.

I can figure out which wire goes where on the Relay using the advice you gave me on a previous post. Here's a really bad picture, but it's how I'm seeing it:

img210.jpg

As well, I need to lose the orange wire completely, along with the ballast resistor, and not to worry about not having a drive resistor. And the wire that's coming out of the distributor needs to go tho the coil. Does it matter where on the coil?

Once more, Thanks!
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Looks good.
On the coil, it doesn't make a lot of difference, but it does make a little. So it's best to connect the wire from the points to the terminal marked with "-".
The other terminal "+" gets power from the ignition switch (through the resistance wire).
 
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