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Is your Healey what you think it is?

BJ8Healeys

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I was just finishing up a letter yesterday to a BJ8 owner in the UK who has discovered that his car is not what the VIN plate says it is. The letter is on official AHCA letterhead and provides evidence and supporting arguments to the UK Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority to allow him to correct the VIN to what it should be, since all of the serialized parts on his car match the number he found on the shock tower -- only the VIN plate is incorrect, and its color changed to what is "original" to the car that the VIN plate belonged to. This car came to the UK in 1989 from Maryland, and the Maryland title shows that the VIN was already incorrect even then. While I was working on the letter, I received a response to my inquiry from a BJ8 owner in Norway (I had his car in the registry as HBJ8L/33623, and saw a car come up for sale that had that same VIN in Germany. I had contacted him to see if he had sold it). Turns out, the Norwegian car has a reproduction VIN plate, the body plate from a car around chassis 41771, and was already missing its original engine when imported into Norway from the USA.

I have seen so many BJ8s over the years that are not what the paperwork is claiming them to be, nor what the owner thinks they are. Sometimes I think more cars are wrong now than right. I would recommend that any owner who has any doubts contact me, or at least verify that the identity plates are original factory-issue and that the car's details match the original build data. There may be nothing that can be done to get the paperwork corrected, but perhaps there is, if the owner wants to pursue it. I would also recommend to anyone thinking about buying a BJ8 to contact me (the BJ8 Registry) before money changes hands to make sure the car has its original integrity, or if not, you know why and you're O.K. with it. Even cars that have been restored by well-known restorers are not immune to scrambled identities. It's better to know up front than to find out later. As of today, the BJ8 Registry has data, records, and ownership history for more than 52% of total BJ8 production (9,218 of 17,712).
 
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BJ8Healeys

BJ8Healeys

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I don't have to worry about my BN4 - it's a mongrel.

Nothing wrong with having a mongrel, John, as long as you're O.K. with it, it's legally registered and usable, and it isn't passed on to the next owner without their understanding of what they are buying.
 

Patrick67BJ8

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My BJ8 had the wrong VIN plate and Steve Byers helped me get it corrected. I recommend checking the shock tower # on your BJ8 to see if it matches the vin plate.
 

AngusSaunders

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I'm replacing my frame with a Martin Jansen frame but still have the original frame. Where and on which shock tower is this number stamped?
Thank you, Angus
 

Patrick67BJ8

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I'm replacing my frame with a Martin Jansen frame but still have the original frame. Where and on which shock tower is this number stamped?
Thank you, Angus
The R/H Shock Tower on the outside edge right below the shock mounting plate.
You should cutoff the vin number on your old frame and save it. You don’t want someone salvaging your old frame and
and trying to get a title for it. You should stamp the vin number on your new frame just as it appears on the old vin stamping
 
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BJ8Healeys

BJ8Healeys

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I'm replacing my frame with a Martin Jansen frame but still have the original frame. Where and on which shock tower is this number stamped?
Thank you, Angus

The VIN on the shock tower is located here:
Sorry for the duplication but I don't see a way to delete an attachment.
 

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The VIN on the shock tower is located here:
Sorry for the duplication but I don't see a way to delete an attachment.
An example of what you may find; don't necessarily expect perfectly stamped and legible characters ;)

(Steve's seen this number before, and when last seen, on a truck for Las Cruces, NM)

i.php
 
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BJ8Healeys

BJ8Healeys

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An example of what you may find; don't necessarily expect perfectly stamped and legible characters ;)

(Steve's seen this number before, and when last seen, on a truck for Las Cruces, NM)

i.php
Yes, and sometimes there can be very interesting surprises -- such as the fact that the number on the shock tower is clearly 41788 and this car has the body plate and engine serial number for 41788, but has the VIN plate and is registered as 41778 (a German-spec car). It's too much of a coincidence not to believe that it was a factory mistake.
 
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BJ8Healeys

BJ8Healeys

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Playing devil's advocate here, but what happens when your investigation into your Healey's past turns up it was a stolen car? People don't swap chassis plates for fun, there has to be a reason. I'm thinking of the guy that found his stolen Healey on eBay forty years later and had it returned to him.

The best thing to do is to verify the integrity and history of any car before you buy it. Too many people haven't done that and then one day wake up to a surprise. VINs and plates are important and it isn't always sufficient to simply look at the VIN plate and the title. Is the plate original, or a replacement? If a replacement, why? The BJ8 community has a unique resource to help them vet a car before buying it -- the BJ8 Registry, since it has data, records, and ownership history for more than 52% of total production. It's also a resource to help people recover 40-year old thefts, which is what made it possible for Bob Russell to get his car back. By the way, it still had (has) its original VIN plate. The funny thing is, the seller of the car advertised "forty year ownership"!
There are lots of reasons to change the identity plates besides theft, although the authorities would probably take a dim view of many of them.

In many cases, it isn't possible to trace the history of a car because of "privacy" and the fact that ownership history has been put out of reach because of it. If you're concerned about previous theft, maybe you could get your local police or DMV to run a check on the car. But then, if you're afraid of what the results might be, you can ignore it.
 

Healey Nut

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What if the shock tower was replaced from a salvaged car due to accident or someone stripping the bolts in the shock mounts etc .
Too much emphasis is put on this whole matching numbers thing if you ask me . If it was a rare model or limited production run then yes you would want it as it left the factory ,but these were large production run cars many have been wrecked modified salvaged etc to keep the old girls running .
As time goes by this will continue . Lets just enjoy the cars we have and keep them healthy and safe to drive and have fun with them .
I dont get the idea of stamping your new Jule frame with an old original number ??
Anyone who knows Healeys will look under the car and realize its a reproduction frame so the car isnt original anyways ?
It never crossed my mind with my matching numbers Tri-Carb to salvage the shock tower number and as I already said I wouldnt transfer the number anyway . The original frame was way way way beyond hope of saving so I went with a Jule superstructure due to the cost saving and better strength of the chassis .
As it turns out the original block was cracked anyway so all the matching numbers idea went out the window .
when its finished it still will be a stunning rally recreation matching numbers or not .
 
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BJ8Healeys

BJ8Healeys

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Too much emphasis is put on this whole matching numbers thing if you ask me . If it was a rare model or limited production run then yes you would want it as it left the factory, but these were large production run cars many have been wrecked modified salvaged etc to keep the old girls running /QUOTE]

As I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with a mongrel car (non-matching numbers, if you please) -- as long as the potential buyer is aware of it and accepts it. What is not good is when the seller doesn't tell all he knows and the buyer doesn't think to verify and then finds out later that it was a salvage car with problems. In some cases, such as the guy in England I've been working with, he only discovered the original number on the shock tower after he bought the car. His car is ALL "matching numbers" except for the VIN plate, but he's having a heck of a time getting the DVLA to correct it.
He may have no choice but to continue to drive and enjoy it, but knowing it isn't 100% correct, and he believes that when the time comes to sell it the value will be reduced unless he passes it on to the next owner without saying anything. To some, the history and integrity of a car is important. For those, they should verify any car before buying it. Isn't that why "Carfax" exists today?
 

Healey Nut

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Clark spares makes the nameplates for engines bulkheads etc etc .
I had an engine # plate made for the 67 as the old was rotted away at one rivit but all the numbers were there . I kept the old one as proof that it is the real block as my 67 is matching numbers . The replacement was identical correct raised numbers and curves on the end etc
My point being is that if you really want to anyone yes anyone who knows where to get the right parts and information can build a “matching numbers “ car .
 

HealeyRick

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Steve's point about "know before you buy" is a good one. Lots harder when you're buying at auction and you're competing against other buyers and don't have the opportunity to do an in-depth pre-purchase inspection. Not to mention the "red mist" that we've probably all felt when buying a car that we absolutely must have and ignore those little voices in our head about red flags. It's interesting to see the number of cars listed on Bring A Trailer that have issues with their chassis numbers not matching the rest of the car's specifications.
 
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BJ8Healeys

BJ8Healeys

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Clark spares makes the nameplates for engines bulkheads etc etc .
I had an engine # plate made for the 67 as the old was rotted away at one rivit but all the numbers were there . I kept the old one as proof that it is the real block as my 67 is matching numbers . The replacement was identical correct raised numbers and curves on the end etc
My point being is that if you really want to anyone yes anyone who knows where to get the right parts and information can build a “matching numbers “ car .

Todd Clarke will make reproduction plates for the VIN, body, and engine serial numbers; but he won't make them unless you prove to him that you own the car that they are intended for (copy of title, bill of sale, etc. He will accept a notarized letter from me). Todd's reproductions are closer to original-looking than any others I've seen. And I've seen many "home-stamped" VIN plates that are simply awful.
As for the body number plate on BJ8s, I've seen reproductions that have the correct body number for the chassis (easily obtained, or used to be, from a BMIHT certificate), but even if the font is correct there is a dead giveaway that it's a repro: certificates usually do not include the "batch" number that is the top line of the plate, so most people have to guess what it is and get it wrong. I've had Todd make new body plates for BJ8 owners but I had to supply the correct batch number.
I had a request from a well-known restorer once for the correct batch number, but I refused to provide it since he wouldn't send me evidence of the correct identity of the car. Now, he doesn't ask.

As for engine serial number plates, once a plate is gone -- totally or partially illegible after being soaked in hot tank chemicals -- there is no way ever again to be sure that engine is the one that originally had that serial number. I discourage people from replacing those when found missing or severely damaged, for obvious reasons.
 

Healey Nut

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Todd Clarke will make reproduction plates for the VIN, body, and engine serial numbers; but he won't make them unless you prove to him that you own the car that they are intended for (copy of title, bill of sale, etc. He will accept a notarized letter from me.

Policies must have changed ,when they did mine I specifically asked about proving the car was mine etc etc .
All I sent was a picture of the rotten plate by email together with hand typed engine number etc and the payment of course and it came in the mail . No proof of ownership was asked for .
This was 10yrs ago so maybe the rules are more strict now .
 
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BJ8Healeys

BJ8Healeys

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Steve's point about "know before you buy" is a good one. Lots harder when you're buying at auction and you're competing against other buyers and don't have the opportunity to do an in-depth pre-purchase inspection. Not to mention the "red mist" that we've probably all felt when buying a car that we absolutely must have and ignore those little voices in our head about red flags. It's interesting to see the number of cars listed on Bring A Trailer that have issues with their chassis numbers not matching the rest of the car's specifications.

When you're considering buying at auction and think you're bidding on a high-dollar car that is "perfect" from a reputable restorer, think of this:

Someone that most of us know (now deceased) once told me he had parted out a BJ8 and sent the remains to the junkyard, but he retained the VIN plate. It was very interesting when a high-dollar car turned up at Barrett-Jackson a few years later using that same VIN number, so the plate may have found its way to a new home.

Another story: someone sent me a completed questionnaire with details of another expensive BJ8 that he bought at Barrett-Jackson, but the numbers didn't add up. I asked for a photo of the VIN plate, which he sent. It was obviously not a Todd Clarke reproduction, and had the VIN HBJ8U/42505G. I happened to have the BMIHT data for 42505 and I knew it was a German-spec car which would not have had the "U" in the VIN, but an "L". The body plate on the car was original to 34404. The engine was original to 38063. I asked the owner to check the shock tower but he didn't respond and it was about two weeks later that he had the car up for sale on eBay.
I wouldn't buy a car at auction or anyplace else if I couldn't inspect it carefully beforehand. I've seen so much of this that I'm suspicious when sellers don't bother to identify the car they are offering. Some go to obvious lengths to avoid including the VIN (or only "HBJ8L/40XXX") in the description. I wonder why?
 
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