TR6 Looking at clutches and their differences for my 69 TR6

Looking at the clutches for my rebuild of my 69 TR6 and have noted a difference in design between Luk and Borg & Beck. The Luk clutch cover or pressure plate is designed with straight fingers where the Borg & Beck are raised at the end that kinda forms a boss where the throw out bearing would ride ( I know it actually doesn't touch the fingers until pushed). Over the years there have been so many problems with the TR6 clutches I just need to know which one is best for my year.

I have had the LUK clutch for several years without problems. The only downside might be the pedal pressure (especially with the .75" master cylinder used with the early cars). If you haven't read the Buckeye articles on the clutch, they are very informative. https://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/clutch/ReliableClutch/ReliableClutch.htm
Berry

I guess what I got from that artical is if you want longevity from your clutch system use a Sachs. Other wise the Borg & Beck is the way to go. Now it's ether 400 or 500dn.

I have had good success with the Magic clutch from TRF.
Scott in CA

Wow I've read the articals and doing some research since I started this tread. There are a lot of problems with throw out bearings. Seems like whatever someone suggests Koyo, Gunst, RSP etc. they don't seem to last. One guy changed his Gunst bearing 3 times and the most he got out of one was 8k. I almost have to believe it is how they set them up. After reading the Buckeye artical I'm leaning towards the Sachs mainly because of less strain on the clutch system. I'm also considering a LUK because of price. 3 piece set for $135.

I took my old OEM PP to a rebuilder 100 miles away. I let him get me the disc and throwout. I figured he would be working with long trusted sources.
Bob

I mentioned the LUK clutch. I put one in my TR250 over 20k miles ago and no problems. Might just stick with LUK. Hopefully I just didn't jinks myself.

One thing I learned the hard way is that if you use a Gunst bearing, you probably want the LUK clutch. I fitted one of those "wonder bearings" when word of the Gunst bearing first started getting around with a new Borg & Beck clutch cover and it never worked correctly. After much exasperation and pulling the transmission yet again, I traded a few e-mails with the (now late) Herr Gunst. He did some playing around with his bearing and a B&B clutch cover and responded back that as I had found, it simply would not work properly with those. He indicated that he had never run into that before as he only used the LUK clutches in his shop, so LUK it was for me as well. I did note that after our little exchanges, he added text to the website and the instructions saying that his bearing would not work with a B&B clutch cover.

That reminds me that somewhere in my research I read that when B&B went to the raised fingers on the clutch cover they started to have issues with TO bearings. What I would like to know now is who makes the TO bearing for Powertune clutches. BPNW says their SACHS clutch kits come with Powertune TO bearings. I'm deciding between the SACHS and the LUK now.

What is it about the TRF Magic Clutch that you don't like ?

Actually nothing. I just found out from a local supplier (he carries them in stock) that it is actually a SACHS clutch. So TRFs price is a bi high if that is actually the case. Also looking at the clutch cover that I took off the 69and is a Laycock. So everyone is saying that LUK and Borg Beck are original so what is correct?

Got_All_4 said:

So everyone is saying that LUK and Borg Beck are original so what is correct?

Click to expand...

Both, according to this:
https://trf.zeni.net/TR6-TR250GB/index.php?menu=A&page=157

Here is an artical that I've kept for a long time and don't remember where I got it from but it's 15+ pages long. Here is 1 page out of it that Bret Kiser's research and experience. I cam post the entire 15 pages but it is very long but very informative. This page 7 is his experience with the Magic clutch and what most of the artical is about is reusing or rebuilding original Laycock and B&B pressure plates.

To Laycock or not to Laycock??
Trials & Tribulations of TR6 Clutches
Brent Kiser
BSME, Purdue University, 1980
Page 7 of 15
June 2000
Original Borg & Beck Cover Side Original Borg & Beck Plate Side
It became obvious at first glance that the original and aftermarket Borg
& Beck pressure plates are not even
close to the same design. The original Borg & Beck is what I call a “Pin
Design” pivot point versus a “Bent
Finger” pivot point.
Original Borg & Beck Aftermarket Borg & Beck
As you can see in the pictures, there is a great difference between the
original and aftermarket units. It is no
wonder that people have been telling me their original Borg & Beck work
great and I have claimed the Borg
& Beck does not work. We were talking about two different designs!!
Since discovering this difference, I have installed over six rebuilt
original Borg & Beck pressure plates and
have not had any problems. I strongly recommend the rebuilt original Borg
& Beck pressure plate.
The “Magic Clutch Kit”
One day I decided to replace my good old original Laycock pressure plate
since it was 30 years old. Besides,
there is not much to do during the winters here in Minnesota and I wanted
to do something with my car.
What a big mistake!
I tried one of the “Magic Clutch Kits” with a Sachs pressure plate, Borg
& Beck disk and a Toyota release
bearing. It had the same problems as the aftermarket Borg & Beck!!! It
had an overly stiff feel and when
engaging the clutch, the pedal sticking returned. In addition to the
pressure plate problem, a new problem
occurred. The Toyota “heavy duty” bearing “squealed” during the initial
engagement of the clutch. The car
was driven this way until I could find a NOS Laycock clutch assembly and
bearing.
In addition to my own problems with the Sachs pressure plate, I have
replaced a Sachs pressure plate in
another car with an original rebuilt Borg & Beck pressure plate due to
excessive pedal force and the car
could not be shifted.
Pivot Pins Pivot Fingers
To Laycock or not to Laycock??
Trials & Tribulations of TR6 Clutches
Brent Kiser
BSME, Purdue University, 1980
Page 8 of 15
June 2000
When you look at the Sachs pressure plate you will see it is like the
original Borg & Beck design with the pin
type pivot point.
“The Magic Clutch”
Sachs Cover Side Sachs Plate Side
Sachs “Pin Type” Pivot
The design of the Sachs is the better than the aftermarket Borg & Beck it
still has too strong of spring. I
cannot recommend the Sachs unit.
To Laycock or not to Laycock??
Trials & Tribulations of TR6 Clutches
Brent Kiser
BSME, Purdue University, 1980
Page 9 of 15
June 2000
Magic Clutch Kit Release Bearing
When the Toyota bearing was removed from my car the cause of a squealing
which occurred when the clutch
was initially engaged became obvious. It was caused by the contact
between the bearing and pressure plate.
Both parts showed excessive wear for having only a couple of thousand
miles. I noticed the original bearing
was a SHIELDED bearing the Toyota bearing was a SEALED unit. The
additional friction drag of the seal
did not allow the bearing to turn with the pressure plate when the clutch
was engaged. Therefore, when
disengaging the clutch, the bearing had to be sped up to match the speed
of the pressure plate. This
differential speed caused the squeal and excessive wear.
By pure luck, I found a NOS Laycock clutch assembly and it is now in my
car and has well over 10m miles
on it. I drove the car to Colorado from Minnesota for the 2001 VTR
convention with the Laycock assembly.
It still works beautifully, is smooth with a light pedal feel and has
NEVER slipped even in the mountains of
Colorado.

Actually here is the exact artical I just found by accident.

https://vintagetriumphregister.org/maintain/clutch-laycock.pdf

poolboy said:

Both, according to this:
https://trf.zeni.net/TR6-TR250GB/index.php?menu=A&page=157

Click to expand...

LUK was never a supplier to Triumph. As that article states, Laycock was later sold off to LUK; but the LUK clutch is not the same as the Laycock. Some of the differences are clearly visible in the "Clutch Measurements" article on the Buckeye site. https://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/clutch/ClutchMeasurements/ClutchMeasurements.htm

It also appears that various different B&B clutches have been supplied at one time or another.