15 percent ethanol

The feds are proposing 15% ethanol by next summer! This is to help the corn farmers according to the news. It is debatable if it helps the environment. Considering the elections are due in just a few weeks we have a chance to make a statement to the present administration.

Hi Guys , I'm hoping they get rid of that idea . Get ready to rebuild your fuel systems and when you get done , get ready to do it again .
Bobby R

There goes what fuel mileage we had. Takes more Alcohol to get same as gasoline.

From what I’ve read, 15% is where the problems with corrosion begin.

Ethanol in fuel is the norm up here . Unless you use certain brands of high test all the time anything else has some ethanol in it .
The only thing I noticed was I had to replace the diaprams in my 67 as they basically fell apart presumably from the effects of the fuel after about 5/6yrs
I replaced them with ethanol compatible ones and all has been good since .
I dont really notice any difference in performance between using high test or lower grade fuel with ethanol added .

Outboard engine mfgrs have already said that if 15% comes out they will void any warranty on engines. There was enough damage done with 10% 10 yrs ago. Vote in congressmen who will look out for us not big business.

From the (limited) reading I've done, the change would allow 15% gasahol to be sold in the summer in areas where it's already available; apparently, current anti-smog regs prohibit sale of this crap in the summer. I've never seen 15% gasahol at any station in California, nor in any state west of Kansas (and I hope it stays this way). FWIW, I've never had a problem with 10% gasahol in any of my cars; for yucks, I put an HD diaphragm in denatured alcohol--50% or more ethanol with other nasty stuff--and, so far, no visible deterioration.

It will RAISE the limit from 10% max to 15%. As far as I know there are no places currently selling 15% unless it is a FlexFuel vehicle. Bob, were you driving when they introduced E10 years ago? It wreaked havoc on old vehicles as the ethanol "washed " the surfaces of the tanks and the resultant gum clogged up fuel systems. It even affected boats that had fiberglas tanks by melting the resin and causing floating bombs as the gas accumulated in the bilges. It ate up fuel line hoses, diaphragms and on aluminum tanks it caused a white "sandy" residue all around.

tahoe healey said:

The feds are proposing 15% ethanol by next summer! This is to help the corn farmers according to the news. It is debatable if it helps the environment. Considering the elections are due in just a few weeks we have a chance to make a statement to the present administration.

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We, the owners of old cars, seem to have survived the elimination of lead from gasoline, and I've never known anyone who uses the "Re-Lead" additive. Was adapting to lead-free gas - seen as the end of the old car hobby by many at the time - somehow easier than adapting to a small increase in ethanol, an element that has been present in most of the gasoline we've used for some time?

I use a product by STA-BIL called "360° Performance" that bills itself as "America’s #1 Ethanol Treatment", "Prevents corrosion caused by moisture and today’s ethanol blended fuels" and as the "Ultimate treatment and protection against Ethanol blended fuels, Non-Ethanol Fuels & condensation."

At just one ounce needed for every five gallons of fuel, it's not expensive. Adapt and survive?

Reid, we have used StarTron blue for years instead of StaBil in the cars and the boats as the treatment additive.

I agree with Reid and think this might be another non-issue in the long run. After all of the hand-wringing some years back and speculation as to the need to buy a "no-lead head" I do not recall anyone having a specific issue with ethanol that made such a step necessary.

One problem ethanol does pose arises from alcohol's hygroscopic nature and the tendency for water to fall out of fuel when stored for a long time. I know from personal experience that ethanol played havoc with fiberglass fuel tanks in older boats, where fuel is often stored for relatively long periods of time. I don't know about the tanks in our cars but given reasonable use and/or the addition of products such as those mentioned which, I believe, allow the condensed water to go back into solution, I just don't think we will suffer from the new formulation.

BTW I am under the impression that premium fuel, which I use exclusively, has less alcohol content than regular. Does anyone know about this?

Mike, do not think that high test has less ethanol. Sticker is on pumps and it says "UP TO" 10% not sure that it "Is" 10%

BTW Mike did you have Hatteras or Bertram? I was stuck with a 31 Bert problem. Pulled all 3 tanks and new alum installed.

Randy--

This was on a 15' Boston Whaler Dauntless which had a 15 or so gallon fg tank under the seat. The resin--or whatever--was softened by the ethanol which caused major carb issues. I would up simply replacing the stock tank with 2 6 gallon plastic tanks which solved the problem.

Did not have that option as Bert was 260 gal and 2 15 gal saddles.

CaptRandy said:

It will RAISE the limit from 10% max to 15%. As far as I know there are no places currently selling 15% unless it is a FlexFuel vehicle. Bob, were you driving when they introduced E10 years ago? It wreaked havoc on old vehicles as the ethanol "washed " the surfaces of the tanks and the resultant gum clogged up fuel systems. It even affected boats that had fiberglas tanks by melting the resin and causing floating bombs as the gas accumulated in the bilges. It ate up fuel line hoses, diaphragms and on aluminum tanks it caused a white "sandy" residue all around.

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I've been driving, and buying gasoline, for over 50 years; thank you for asking (I got my learner's permit at 15-and-a-half, as soon as I could, so since late 1968 or early 1969). How long have you been driving?

The first appearance of 'gasahol' in California pumps that I became aware of was in a brand called Beacon, which I believe was either purchased by or morphed into Arco brand. There was a Beacon station in Menlo Park where I lived when I bought my first Healey, and it's been over 30 years but IIRC I avoided putting that fuel into my Healey (though I do recall putting it in an old Subaru I owned because it was a few cents a gallon cheaper, and don't recall having any problems in that underpowered turd).

Randy, please re-read my CAREFULLY CHOSEN words (I've emboldened the salient ones):

"FWIW, I've never had a problem with 10% gasahol in any of my cars; for yucks, I put an HD diaphragm in denatured alcohol--50% or more ethanol with other nasty stuff--and, so far, no visible deterioration."

Nowhere, in this forum or any other, have I disputed that adding an adulterant--including ethanol and possibly some of the 'miracle' fuel additives--to auto fuels can be problematic. I have a background in chemistry and am fairly familiar with the possible deleterious effects of organic solvents, and was never surprised by reports of damage caused by fuels containing a strong solvent like ethanol (or gasoline, for that matter). Between my late father's cars and mine we have a small 'fleet' of seven owner-maintained vehicles--none newer than 2008 model year--and two ancient farm tractors. My father and I never experienced a problem with any of these machines that we could definitively attribute to ethanol-laced gas* (one problem is that California does not mandate the disclosure of ethanol content in our gasoline, so one cannot be entirely sure, but most pumps state that some ethanol may be present in the fuel). But, to my knowledge, none of our machines have fiberglass or aluminum gas tanks. David Nock believes that ethanol in gas causes our cars to run lean, causing the expected problems but, again, I have not personally experienced this (I may have enrichened my carbs during normal tuning exercises though). Ethanol is highly hygroscopic and will absorb moisture from the air; I suspect the 'white sandy' substance found in such tanks may be aluminum oxide (i.e. corrosion). Pure aluminum is highly reactive and will quickly form a thin coating of aluminum oxide as soon as it is exposed to air (anodizing is a controlled application of this principle, and any welder knows you have to carefully clean the oxide coating on aluminum in order to get a good weld).

Note also that the composition of 'gasoline' itself has changed significantly over the last few decades. I confess I don't have much knowledge of the changes made by the refiners--and they're likely proprietary secrets--but from what I've heard gasoline is less of a blend of long-chain aliphatic hydrocarbons--with a bunch of highly toxic tetraethyl lead added for detonation prevention--and now contains more aromatic hydrocarbons.

re: "It will RAISE the limit from 10% max to 15%."

I believe this statement to be misleading, if not downright false in at least one way (E15 has apparently been available for some time in some states, though its use was restricted in summer months due to its contribution to smog). I couldn't find the article I referenced earlier, but here's one, from a credible source, that addresses the actual issue:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenr...-rule-wont-change-your-gasoline/#7468ba797d96

As usual, Reid addresses this succinctly and level-headedly (although I am concerned that my 2008 Mustang has 'NO E15' printed on the gas cap). So far, though, I'm not losing any sleep over this. Also, remember what a catastophe emissions control, mainly catalytic converters, were going to be for those of us who like 'performance' cars? You can now walk down to your nearby Chevrolet, Ford or Dodge dealer and buy a car with north of 700 horsepower off the lot that gets 25MPG. Not a bad thing, right?

* I do have the common, temporarily stumbling problem when driving for the first couple miles after a hot start on a hot day, and I do suspect that may be due to fuel vaporization; which could be due to ethanol or any other component of the fuel. It does seem to be less evident on the rare occasions I can fuel with pure gas.

Several years ago there was a book by Michael Pollan (sp?) called "A Carnivore's Dilemma". It was a well researched treatment of the food industry. It had a long presentation on corn production. Fertilizer is made from petroleum and petroleum products are used throughout agricultural production. The upshot is that more than one BTU of petroleum energy is expended to make one BTU of alcohol energy.
Bob

Here's the content of an email I sent to the Healeys mailing list back in August (just so there's no confusion on where I stand):

"I've read reports over the years on this topic and the consensus is that, AT BEST, ethanol in gasoline is a wash; i.e. the resources and energy consumed to grow, harvest, refine, transport and mix ethanol into gasoline is a break even with any 'savings' from using less oil (and probably not even that). It does serve as an oxygenate in the fuel, hence the leaner burning, whether that is beneficial to the environment is also subject to debate, all things considered. All studies indicate that other sources of ethanol; sugar cane in Brazil, for instance or, potentially sawgrass in the US, which is not a food source, are much more efficient or practical sources of organic material suitable for distillation.

From an American standpoint ethanol is a purely a political endeavor. Iowa, where much of the corn used for distillation is grown, is the first primary on the American presidential primary calendar. Therefore, every American presidential candidate--of both major parties--is required to pander relentlessly to Iowa farmers and their overlord, ADM (Archer Daniels Midland Corp., the major processor of corn and ethanol). Only because it's the first primary and somehow can imbue a candidate with 'momentum'--historically, this isn't even a given, 'winners' of Iowa often fade quickly--and not because Iowa is otherwise particularly significant in the American economy, is Iowa even an issue (some states have or are considering moving their primaries earlier in order to 'compete' with the disproportionate influence of Iowa).

Also, thanks to NAFTA, the corn growers and ADM have put thousands, if not millions, of Mexican sustenance farmers out of business, many of which are now crossing our borders looking for survival. Having put these farmers out of business, and having received some pushback against 'gasahol,' the growers and ADM must now try again to force their environmentally and ethically challenged product into our cars."

I've been using ethanol-laced gas in CT for years in my TR6 with no apparent problems with the fuel system. I use 93 octane only as my timing is advanced for more performance. I put in drygas and some fuel stabilizer each winter when the car just sits in the garage.