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Time to build oil pressure

kozelding

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Yes, another oil pressure thread.... :peaceful:

Since the engine in my BT7 was rebuilt ~10k miles ago, the time for oil pressure to register at start-up feels very long. If the engine sits for > 2 hours, it takes 7-9 loooong seconds for the gauge to move. (Though it then moves quickly.)

Running pressure is fine (50-55 PSI @ 3000 RPM, 17-20 PSI @ 750 RPM, hot).
After short stops (<30 minutes), pressure shows instantly at start-up.

Is there such thing as the oil pump losing prime? I'm running a stock filter set-up.

I did clean the gauge line connection at the engine block (no change), and confirmed on a cold engine it took 3 long starter cranks to see oil at that fitting (though I didn't try starting the engine).

To date I've been ignoring this, but lately (probably because the car is running fine otherwise) I've been perseverating. I was going to drop the sump during the fall oil change. Anything I should look for specifically?
 

Gliderman8

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Is possible that it is the gauge that’s sticky? Maybe after long shutdown periods the gauge is not registering quick enough giving the illusion that it’s the engine. Just a thought.
 

Bob_Spidell

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I don't think the OEM, canister-style filters have an anti-drainback mechanism; I think it would take a few seconds to fill an empty canister. A good spin-on filter with a silicone anti-drainback 'valve' usually shows pressure in 2-3 seconds after engine start.
 

Michael Oritt

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Kozelding--

Some questions:

1. Are you saying that this condition has been present ever since the rebuild or is it just appearing now and/or getting worse?
2. When the engine was rebuilt did you replace the oil pump and if not how old is it?
3. How did you break-in the engine and with what kind of oil?
4. What kind of and weight oil are you now using and what is the consumption?
 

Healey Nut

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The oil gauge has a restrictor in the connection to the gauge to stop pulsations from the pump giving erratic readings . The line to the gauge maybe clear but the restrictor could be partially .....well restricted. That gives slow response from the gauge .
 
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kozelding

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Hi Michael,

Some answers:

> 1. Are you saying that this condition has been present ever since the rebuild or is it just appearing now and/or getting worse?

That's what I'm trying to remember. I'd say it's been that way on a stone cold engine ever since the rebuild, but I could easily convince myself it's been getting worse on a warm/tepid engine over the last 5000 miles. (I think I would have been alarmed by the behavior on a brand new rebuild.)

> 2. When the engine was rebuilt did you replace the oil pump and if not how old is it?

Unfortunately I have no idea.

> 3. How did you break-in the engine and with what kind of oil?

I'd say moderate driving with Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 mineral oil. I don't know what the rebuilder did for initial start-up; I got an assembled car back with 20 miles already on it.

What I don't want to say, because I don't want to think about it, is that I was told the engine had post-rebuild oil change(s) prior to delivery. Judging by what came out of the drain plug 200 miles later, I'm doubtful that was the case.

> 4. What kind of and weight oil are you now using and what is the consumption?

Mobil 1 15w-50 with zero detectable consumption.

What's made me think things are fundamentally okay is that the running pressure seems fine.

Thank you!
 

Michael Oritt

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Kozelding--

The answer to #2 is critical and if the builder did not put in a new oil pump you should do it or have it done--and perhaps consider changing engine builders as well....

There are specs in the shop manual as to how much clearance should be present in the pump. In the scheme of things the pump's being the culprit offers both a relatively easy and inexpensive fix.
 

Healey Nut

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Kozelding--

The answer to #2 is critical and if the builder did not put in a new oil pump you should do it or have it done--and perhaps consider changing engine builders as well....

There are specs in the shop manual as to how much clearance should be present in the pump. In the scheme of things the pump's being the culprit offers both a relatively easy and inexpensive fix.

If the pump builds pressure how can the pump be the culprit ? I would be trying a different gauge first .
I didnt replace the pumps in either of my rebuilds but I did lap the face of the gear cover plate on a piece of glass to remove the wear marks .
 

Michael Oritt

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HN--

A worn oil pump can--eventually--build pressure, the operative word being "eventually", as opposed to the way we like it, which is virtually instantly.
BTW the next step after "eventually" is "not at all" as happened to me me earlier this year:

I was becoming increasingly tired of watching the oil pressure gauge needle react sluggishly on start-up and did not enjoy seeing the hot oil pressure fall to 30 psi at speed/10 psi at idle. The capper was when, after an oil and (spin-on) filter change I could not get the oil pump to reprime, even with a fully charged battery and gear reduction starter, until I partially backed the filter off its seat.

Obviously something had to be done and after draining the (new) oil I dropped the pan and pulled the oil pump. It was easy to see and feel that there was wear between the gears as well as on the end face. Since it was 70K miles since the last rebuild I decided to do a "mini-refresh" with the engine in situ, and I replaced the OP with a DW unit. I also replaced all rod bearings and the center lower main (the upper center and front and rear mains could not be replaced without further disassembly requiring engine removal)--the crank journals looked great and the bearings were only lightly scuffed, and I was already in there, so....

The result of all this was that OP returned to "normal" (if not "new"): 60-65 psi on start-up, 50-55 psi at speed/25-30 at idle hot oil. The dramatic increase in OP was due, I am certain, to the presence of the new pump. Short of a broken drive dog or the like, oil pump failure is gradual, not sudden, and it begins with a drop in oil pressure and symptoms such as Kozelding is experiencing.
 
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Healey Nut

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Way to much paranoia about oil pressure if you ask me .
How many modern cars have an actual oil pressure gauge ?
Most just have an idiot light that goes out after start up , you have absolutely no idea what the actual pressure is .
Give the driver a real gauge and they become paranoid that it should be this or that or mine says this or that .
What would you do of the Healeys just had an idiot light like a modern car ?
 
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Deleted member 21878

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Healeynut
i would agree that if this were 50 years ago when we were all young, we would just get in the cars and drive on. maybe all we could afford at the time... and we needed the car to get around. So we just drove it.

Although if we had had a resource like this back then... well we probably still would have been asking. haha.

driving my wife's new car home from the dealer last year, i noticed it was only running about 35psi at highway speed. started doing some checking and the manufacturer says 29psi at 2000 rpm is considered normal. far cry from the 50 or more we usually see in cars and talk about here. but right away i had to check... why?

i can remember when cars went to idiot lights. my dad went right to the local auto supply and bought gauges to mount under the dash. (Not mom's car of course.) his saying at the time, and my influence, was: "by the time that darn light comes on i got real problems." And when they first went to electric temp gauges.... he went out and put in a mechanical one because he did not trust the electric ones. Hey, they did not have numbers on them.

from my upbringing, i think of the gauge as more of an early warning. Maybe Michael was able to just put in an oil pump as opposed to having to pull the engine for something more serious... and expensive.... down the road, had he just had an idiot light.

for you all that have been on this forum and had these cars a long time, i thank you for putting up with us new guys. all the questions you endure over and over. sometimes i think we worry because we can. Some times we worry because what we don't know, well what we don't know.

we spend lots of time and effort on any number of cosmetic things to make the car look better. this the same thing to me. just trying to make the car as perfect as we can. And hey, old people worry... that is what we do.

Kozelding
if you decide you want to check your gauge first, HF sells a fairly cheap test gauge. of course the first time you use it, it will take a while for the pressure to build up in the hose on it. but it may give you a better idea on your gauge.
 

Healey Nut

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HN--


The result of all this was that OP returned to "normal" (if not "new"): 60-65 psi on start-up, 50-55 psi at speed/25-30 at idle hot oil. The dramatic increase in OP was due, I am certain, to the presence of the new pump. Short of a broken drive dog or the like, oil pump failure is gradual, not sudden, and it begins with a drop in oil pressure and symptoms such as Kozelding is experiencing.

I run factory style oil filters on both my cars . I havent timed the duration it takes to build pressure but you do need to wait a few seconds for the pressure build as the canister fills etc .
Both my cars run similar pressure 50/55 cold 10/15 hot . I have pulled the valve covers on both cars with hot idling engines and Have good flow to all the oiling ports on the rocker shaft .
Im sure you could attribute some of your OP gain to the new pump but some of it will be due to replacing the rod shells etc . As I have pointed out in previous posts on OP resistance to flow (closer bearing clearances) will in turn increase OP .


And FWIW her Z4 doesnt even have a dipstick , oil level is monitored electronically by some widget or other .
 

Michael Oritt

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HN--

You said: "What would you do of the Healeys just had an idiot light like a modern car?"

Actually, my car DOES have a low oil pressure "idiot" light.

A number of years back I switched over to a Mallory Unilite distributor and was road testing the car, observing the effect of adjustments in advance on water temperature under WOT. Fortunately I was looking at the safety gauge just as the OP needle suddenly dropped to zero! I quickly shut down, got a tow home and verified that there was no oil circulation whatsoever. After dropping the pan I saw that the (original) oil delivery pipe between the oil pump and block had sheared at the pump nipple. Figuring I could not count on being that lucky again I installed a normally-open 5 psi pressure switch and light, along with a DW flexible oil line as it was pure dumb luck that I did not lose the engine. FWIW every racer I know has a big red idiot light directly in his or her field of vision in addition to an oil pressure gauge to show a catastrophic loss of oil pressure. Things break, whether on the road or the track, and while I'm glad to hear you're comfortable with only the stock gauge I'll opt for a clearly visible warning light as well.

Kozelding--

As you can see, we have lots of opinions around here and mine is still that you should check out your oil pump.
 
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Healey Nut

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Race car is a totally different animal. You rev the engine harder, your eyeballs are being shaken around, you're focused on the apex and braking points. A big red bright idiot light is a must. Trying to read if the gauge says 15 or 50 is not possible or feasible. If the light goes out hit the kill switch or the opposite depending how you have it functioning.
 
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kozelding

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I always like a good argument :smile:

I would love to believe it's the gauge - and will see about testing that - but I do plan at this point on dropping the sump next oil change.... So far with this car, everything that I initially waffled about pulling apart, I was glad (i.e. unpleasantly surprised) when I finally did.

In this case, an idiot lamp glowing at me 10 seconds after a warm start on any car would bother me - which is essentially my symptom.
 

RAC68

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Hi All,

Depending on the extent of time to develop oil pressure on what you are experiencing, I can tell you my un-rebuilt engine and original oil pump have also taken a number of seconds to build and indicate pressure after a cold-start since new. My pressure when cold also reaches maximum and has a hot idle of 20 lbs. @ a 900 RPM using Mobile 1 15W50 with an original type filter. If you indicated it took over a minute or pressure remained low after starting, I could see a possible problem. However, your pressure raises to the limits of the pressure valve and you also have a good idle pressure when Hot so, what's the problem? I don't see one but have been wrong before.

Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
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Michael Oritt

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Kozelding--

Dropping it can always be an instructive exercise. With your freshly done engine the sump should be free of sludge. While you're in there check the screen on the oil pump if nothing else. And if you have the original style solid pipe leading from the oil pump to the block please consider upgrading to one of the flexible versions with braided hose--the old ones work-harden and sooner or later break as I described in an earlier message.
 
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kozelding

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So to follow-up, it looks like Michael Oritt gets the prize. I pulled the sump, and the existing oil pump had a surprising amount of lash between the gears.

I also have an aluminum oil pan, but no one had trimmed the intake pipe of the original pump, so there was only a fraction of an inch clearance between it and the bottom of the pan.

Anyway, a new pump is in and I'm now seeing only a 3-4 second delay after start-up before the guage swings up. Plus I gained a few pounds of pressure at hot idle!

Now here's hoping the County oil pump from Moss is better built than the County water pumps....
 

RAC68

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Hi All,

Well, I guess the moral of the story is to TRUST your Engine Rebuilder's Work. I appreciate that we mostly get guestions and comments from those who are having problems with rebuilt engines but why so many? Since my unrebuilt engine seems to be running good but I would be very concerned if this decision was really needed. Yes, I do have a friend I would trust to rebuild my engine but even he has voiced concerns about parts quality. I hate to say it but I would seriously consider replacing my engine with a replacement modern engine if concerns and costs grow keep growing.

Just my thoughts,
Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
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