Another Discussion of Trans/OD Fluid

Hi All,

A short time back, I experienced leakage of Red Line MTL onto the Clutch/Clutch-Plate resulting in Clutch Slippage. To counter this condition, I went back to 30W ND and, on a drive yesterday, experienced NO Clutch Slippage. Although the Red Line may have dried from the clutch, shifting seemed much more notchy and difficult even though OD Activation/deActivation seemed smooth and quick. I prefer the transmission's operation when using the Red Line MTL and would like to reinstall it. However, I am concerned I will be tempting fate resulting in another bout of clutch slippage and, this time, requiring a clutch change to rectify.

OK, I had used 30W ND for all but the last 2 years with great satisfaction. I am presently using a rather inexpensive 30W ND from Walmart as it was the only brand I could find at the time and place.

Is there a synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid (MTF) that others have used and would recommend?
Is there a Brand of 30W ND Oil (Synthetic or Mineral) that other have used and found a good performer?
Is there an Additive that has been used with 30W ND that improves the operational performance of the oil in manual transmissions?

When using Red Line MTL, I only filled to the bottom of the dip-stick to diminish the possibility of leakage through the "O" ring of the Solenoid activation rod. This action was taken after experiencing Red Line seepage that filled the Solenoid enclosure and hydraulically locking the Solenoid piston (happened when first converting to Red Line on filling to FULL). After a 2 year period of running MTL at the LOW level and not experiencing any issues, I confidently took the chance of adding sufficient MTL to bring it up to the Full mark which resulted in seepage leading to my slipping Clutch.

If I go back to Red Line MTL, I would only fill the fluid to the LOW level as before. However, do you think this would cause any additional ware to the Transmission unit if the OD performed flawlessly at that level?

I would appreciate any thoughts and suggestions,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Hi Ray,

I have, as you probably recall from earlier posts last year and before, been using redline MT90 in my O/D gearbox for a few years now (6 years in total). I have always used the product to the full mark on my dipstick. The only issue I had for a while was the drops on fluid on the garage floor as the stuff does find a way out.

Anyway, I liked the performance so much I persisted and around 18 months ago I did a full gearbox and O/D rebuild. Whe I did, I used the Permatex Ultra Synthetic sealant which is specifically designed to seal transmissions and engines when using synthetic oils. I used it on every sealing surface including the brake ring and still to date I have had no leaks. I expect it may find a way out one day, however so far so good for over a year (not a single drop of MT90 has leaked so far). It is full to just below the max level on the dipstick.

I used to use Penrite HPR30 which was pretty good, however the redline was recommended by a friend with a BJ8 when my O/D started to play up a little (would sometimes not operate). Rather than pull the transmission, I used the MT90 and all my O/D problems went away. Until the leaks started, and eventually this is why I did the rebuild (the transmission had never been touched since new and the synchros were getting a bit worn.

I only hope the Permatex continues to hold up.

Cheers
Tony

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Hi Tony,

Last night I followed your lead and ordered the Red Line MT90. I previously used the lighter viscosity MTL which was initially recomended and hope the MT 90 will not cause the extent of leakage originally experienced. I have no plans to pull the trans and hope it will not be necessary as a result of Red Line again getting on the clutch disk and causing slippage. Since all worked perfectly prior to my raising the MTL to the Full level on the dip stick, I am still toying with the idea of starting with the lower level before increasing the level to full. After reading the Red Line documentation (on their web site), I am pretty confident that this MT Fluid is the best choice IF I Can Contain It in the Transmission. Other then pulling the trans/OD and installing new seal and applying sealant, I see no way to address this issue other then a low fill.

I sent an e-mail to Red Line oil mentioning my use, issue with it seeping out of my Trans/OD and request for anything I could do to reduce outflow. Their response was only to indicate that the MT90 was correct for my Healey and the fluid was compatible with original oil seals. Although this is nice to know, the fluid's common tendency for seepage seams to indicate a product issue in this area and the company should address this as a product improvement.

Just my thoughts,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Hi All,

This morning I sent a more detailed description of my experiences to Red Line Oil and described my high satisfaction with the use of MTL along with my experiences resulting from the oil's tendency to escape the confines of the Transmission/OD. I indicated I was changing to their MT90 because of the consequential issues caused by fluid seepage and would appreciate any suggestions. In response, I received the following e-mail:

Ray,

Thank you for the information. Do you know what the sealmaterial is? If the seal is in good condition there shouldn’t be an issue with leakage when using our product, as they contain comparable seal swell to apetroleum product. If a seal did leak a slight amount of seal swell could be added.

Regards,

Dave Granquist

Click to expand...

As I interpret his comments, if some seepage is present, a small amount of Transmission Stop Leak can be added to rejuvenate transmission seals and stop the problem. Upon further research of Transmission Stop Leak products, I noticed that many indicated the product could be used in Manual and Automatic transmissions and with most, if not all, transmission fluids. As a result, I will be filling my transmission/OD with Red Line MT90 and, after a short period of operation, intend to add a small amount of Stop Leak additive to the fluid.

Any thoughts or suggestions on what Stop Leak Additive would be best?
Ray(64BJ8P1)

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

I believe 'seal swell' is just what it sounds like: a chemical to make seals swell. It wouldn't have any effect on paper gaskets, or the metal-to-metal 'seal' on the brake ring section of the OD, but might help seal up leaks from the front and rear seals and, possibly, the O-rings. I wouldn't expect a miracle. It's conceivable it would cause too much swelling on the O-rings on the operating pistons of the OD, causing binding, but 400psi+ should overcome it.

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Ray,

I think I would do some research to assure myself the “seal swell” will not affect the operation of the O/D clutch. I am not suggesting it will, I just dont know anything about the product and I know how careful we need to be in selecting oils compatible with the clutch material.

Cheers
Tony

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Tony,

You are absolutely correct and my initial Stop Leak selection is Bar's 1420 as it is intended to perform in both Automatic and Standard Transmissions and indicates compatiblility with all mineral and Synthetic fluids. Under your suggestion, I have sent a customer contact message to Bar's describing my objective and asking for their suggestions and recommendations. My initial thought was that since the fluid is intended for use in Automatic Transmissions, having similar clutches as our OD, there should be no problem with our OD Clutch. However, I am waiting for their response.

Thanks again Tony and all the best,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Hi All,

Just to keep those interested up-to-date, the following was received from Technical Support Bar's Products on my query on using Bar's 1420 Stop Leak for transmissions (Automatic and Manual) to stop fluid seepage when using Red Line MT90 synthetic fluid in my Trans/OD:

Hi Raymond,

Thank you for reaching out to Bar’s LeaksTechnical Support with reference to a small fluid seepage on your 1964 AustinHealey 3000 Mk3 Phase 1 transmission. Yes, I’m jealous! In general syntheticoils/fluids don’t have the same natural seal swell / conditioner abilities oftraditions oils/fluids. Most if not all synthetic oils/fluids have someseal swell / conditioner packages added to them.

We don’t see any issues in using the P/N1420 Transmission Stop Leak Concentrate product in this application, wewould recommend half a bottle.

If we can provide any further assistance,please don’t hesitate to email or contact us at 800-345-6572. We can be reachedM-F, from 8 am to 5 pm Eastern time.

Kind regards,

Technical Support Specialist
Bar's Products, Inc.
800-345-6572 (Office)
810-603-1335 (fax)

Click to expand...

Presently, I am in the process of securing a bottle of Bar's Transmission Stop Leak and, once in hand and after putting a few miles on a fresh (2) quart partial fill of Red Line MT90, will be adding the Bar's Stop Leak fluid. Although a little insecure performing this experiment, I have not found any reason, as yet, to indicate this as a bad idea.

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts,

Ray(64BJ8P1)

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

I think you're in unknown territory, but you'll probably be OK. The seal swell chemical, AFAIK, is meant to react with rubber seals; I couldn't tell what the OD clutch material is for sure, but it looked like typical clutch material--probably organic--that has been saturated with oil (anybody know what's used in 'wet' clutches?). If it's OK with automatics, it should be OK with our ODs, and the OD clutch is held engaged with over 400PSI, it would take a lot to make it slip.

Please keep us posted; I may give it a try myself as my brand new actuator shaft O-rings from Moss are leaking. I've bought a couple seals--main shift lever and speedometer output--and now the O-rings that are close-but-no-cigar fits for original from Moss*. I, er, coerced the seals into place, and I think they're OK, but one O-ring is leaking and I'm afraid if the one inside the solenoid enclosure is I'll experience the same hydro-lock that you did. I'm half-tempted to drill a hole in the bottom of the enclosure to let the fluid leak out; if I can do it without pulling the gearbox I probably will; after all, the earlier ODs did not have an enclosure. FWIW, I don't think MT-90 leaked from these (original) O-rings before I replaced them--SOP, right?--but I couldn't tell for sure with all the other leaks (including our favorite).

* Not slamming Moss; if anything, I'm a fan of their efforts to keep our old LBCs running, but it looks like in this circumstance they are supplying seals and O-rings that are nominally close, but haven't been been tested in actual use.

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Hi All,

Today I acquired a bottle of Bar's Transmission Stop Leak Concentrate to add to my Trans/OD. As suggested by both Bar's Technical Support and Red Line Technical Support (posted previously), I added the Stop Leak to the Red Line in the transmission/OD sparingly. Since the Stop Leak instructions indicate adding the full 11 ounce bottle of concentrate to up to 10 Quarts of transmission fluid, I used the ration of 1 oz. of concentrate per Quart of Red Line MT90. Further, to address past leakage issues in a careful manor, I have added approximately 2.5 quarts of Red Line MT90 to the trans/OD that, I think, will bring the internal level to slightly higher then the low mark on the dip stick and slightly above the Solenoid control rod "O" ring. After driving the Healey in a spirited manor for approximately 15 Miles, as expected, shifting felt much better with the Red Line then with 30W non-detergent engine oil. Also, OD activation/deactivation appeared brisk and sure.

Upon returning home, I parked over a clean sheet of brown wrapping paper and, at the end of 3 hours, showed 2 small spots (1 below the Clutch housing opening and 1 a little further back and to the left). Although I would liked to have seen no markers, Bar's Transmission Stop Leak instructions are clear to indicate it would take approximately 200 miles or so of use for the swelling chemicals to fully affect the seals.

Now to have the patience to wait, observe and let the fluids work … Not Over React.

Ray(64BJ8P1)

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Please keep us up to date. i have a TR6 i used MT90 on a while back and it seems to want to leak in a number of spots now... along with the Healey gearbox. although the Healey has 30wt oil in it.

Re: I Apologize in advance for Another Discussion on Trans/OD Fluid

Hi All,

Today I took my Healey out for another run to exercise the Trans/OD and get the "Stop Leak" to work. Having added a little more Red Line and 1 additional oz of Bar's Transmission Stop Leak to bring it up to 4 Oz in total with a total fluid level a little above LOW. Pulling out of the garage, I found 3 spots of fluid on the Brown paper spread on the floor showing that seepage is still present. However, I will wait till tomorrow to check how much has escaped after todays run. Since Bar's technical support indicated it could take as much as 200 miles of operation to swell the seals sufficiently, I have only exercised my Healey 1/10 of that total and still expect to find markers for some time. However, I will keep you informed.
Ray(64BJ8P1)

Hi All,

Update: After the last 2 short test drives I thought I was still seeping a small amount of transmission oil, however, I mispositioned the brown wrapping paper and identified oil seeping from the engine. For now, I feel very good that the Red Line MT90 and 4 ounces of Bar's Transmission Stop Leak Concentrate combined to give me good performance without extensive seepage as before. That being said, I now must look to see from where my Healey is still marking its territory.

I will continue to keep you updated on the transmission and if seepage remains improved.

Ray(64BJ8P1)

Ray, your comment about using Walmart's 30W ND in your gearbox jumped out at me. I had always used Valvoline 30W ND until a few years ago when I happened to see Walmart's Accel brand of 30W ND and at a cheaper price. So, I refilled my gearbox/overdrive with the Accel oil. After a period of time, my overdrive began to fail to disengage. This problem continued until I drained the Accel and went back to Valvoline and haven't had any sticking problems since.
I haven't found any particular issues with the shifting that needed improvement so I haven't tried the Redline product. No special leakage issues with the Valvoline, either, and engagement of the overdrive couldn't be any quicker.

Hi Steve,

Finding 30W ND has become a problem here and, with the leaking issue experienced with Red Line MTL, I replace it with the first 30W ND oil I could find. It seems that even Advanced Auto and Auto Zone didn't have a brand name. Since it was a test to see if the trans/OD would stop leaking, I figured it was not going to be used enough to be a problem. However, my transmission has always been a notchy shifter and the OD has always operated positively and without hesitation. Now shifting is still notchy but much less so with the Red Line MT90 and now the Bar's Transmission Stop Leak (only used 4 Oz of the 11 Oz bottle and it seems to have stopped the seepage. For how long …. who knows.

Ray(64BJ8P1)