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Gearbox/clutch problem - again

pdplot

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Need help. This happened once before to 1992 Alfa Spider a few weeks ago.
1. Started car & tried to put in reverse - first touching 3rd as usual. Grinding noise. No go. Note - Car has hydraulic clutch. No obvious fluid leaks and reservoir full.
2. Tried to sneak it into other gears - no good. Started to grind in each gear. Clutch obviously not releasing - or not releasing far enough.
3. Shut off engine - put it in reverse, started car and slowly released clutch.
Car started to roll backwards but made loud howling noise. Same noise it made the last time this happened. Noise got less and stopped after about 10 seconds. Pushed in clutch and shifted to neutral. Car stopped rolling so it appears clutch plate not stuck.
4. Shut off engine, put in second gear, started car and let out clutch. Car rolled forward and into garage. No noise.
5. With engine off, put in clutch and shifted into all gears. No problem. Clutch does make a squeaking noise at the bottom that it did not do before a couple of weeks ago when the same problem surfaced. (When my son tried it after a while that day - no problems). Weird.
6. Pumped clutch pedal about 20 times and tried again. No luck. Because slave cylinder is underneath, and I have no lift, I can't tell if cylinder is pushing fork properly. (In my next life, I swear I will own a lift). I can't even drive car to shop and am afraid to have it towed. Any ideas on what could be causing this problem and is there a quick fix so I can at least drive it? (I once drove an MG TD from Philly to CT with no clutch, starting in first gear and shifting without the clutch - but I don't dare do that with this car - my son's.)
 
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Did it again. Okay, when was the last time it "did" it? A few weeks ago? To rust a clutch facing to flywheel or pressure plate takes some time. Months of wet weather. This is summer.

With the noise and not being there, my guess is a seizing pilot bearing or most likely a shock spring has come adrift of the disc and is wedging against the flywheel bolts.
The information that it makes all sorts of noise and then cleans up makes me surmise the plate pivots (if three finger style) are not failed, nor did you report a rapidly fluctuating pedal when running, so cover probably okay.

Ask Doc, but I think, based upon the information given, you will need to open it up.
 

DrEntropy

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Several things come to mind. Not 100% sure about the later (1992) cars but likely they were no different than earlier ones. The "squeaking" with engine off is likely to be due to an unlubricated pivot ball for the release fork. There's a retaining spring on the fork, too. They tend to make a noise as the fork is moved in and out. As for the clutch misbehavior, only way to know is to drop the gearbox out. I've seen various failures, from a spring coming out of the driven plate and rattling around, jamming twixt plate and flywheel, to the fork cracking, splitting and bending into uselessness. It's a stamped steel part, prone to failure.

It is possible to drop the box out without a lift but a true PITA! Nose needs to be high in the air and the hood off or it will get an "outie" from the tilt required of the engine. Not a job for the uninitiated. I've no recommendation about shops in your area, but I'd be asking any Alfisti in the region about one.

EDIT: The disappearing noise while running would likely be the throwout bearing. Noisy when cold, quiets down as the bearing is warmed.
 
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pdplot

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Thanks Doc and TOC. I'll see my local guy here in town first. I know he's worked on Alfas. Whether he wants to is another matter. If not, I met a Spider owner at Hayfields who runs a shop in Greenwich and may be willing and able (and I hope, reasonable) to do the job. There's a specialist recommended by Luciano but he's all the way up in Lime Rock, over two hours away. If the hydraulics are ok, which I think they are, then the trouble lies within the clutch. My son thinks it may have been damaged by the shipper when it was shipped from Florida up here, but I don't see how they could have hurt the clutch - just the gearbox that may have been manhandled by forcing it into gear despite the grinding. When shifting into reverse, you have to touch 4th gear first. Ditto into first and having to nick 2nd. Then no grinding. Supposedly these are Porsche synchros.
 

DrEntropy

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Hope you get it sorted. And let us know what the problem was. Sachs makes a "kit" at reasonable cost; pressure plate, driven plate and T/O bearing, along with an alignment tool. Be sure to have whoever does it to check that fork for cracking, too.

A known quirk of the Alfas: second gear synchro seems to go away sooner than the rest. By partially engaging the second or fourth gear synchros, it stops the mainshaft gears turning and then first can be engaged without the graunch.
 
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Usually a T/O bearing won't do that...failure to disengage, noisy for a bit, then quiet, then shifts fine. But you never know on eye-tahl-eee-yans.
 

DrEntropy

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I think the T/O bearing noise is a separate issue from whatever is causing the failure to disengage the clutch.
 

PAUL161

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I had the same problem on one of my tractors pop up once. International tractor with a little age on it wouldn't release the clutch fully. Found out a spring in the pressure plate came loose and popped out of it's seat making the clutch release only on three points. I wasn't sure that was the problem until I took a day to split the tractor in half, then a couple hours to go get parts, A new clutch disk, pressure plate and throw out bearing went back in which took another couple hours and another day to glue the tractor back together! Problem solved! I don't think he'll have to split his vehicle in half to fix it if that's the problem, like I did on the tractor. Tractors are a real pain. :thumbsup: PJ
 
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pdplot

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My go-to guy here in town will look at it but not until at least the end of the week as he has a man on vacation and is full up. Getting it down there may be a problem.
 

SD Bugeye

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Broken pressure plate finger?
old hose expanding stealing clutch valve volume?
 
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Broken pressure plate finger?
old hose expanding stealing clutch valve volume?

Probably neither, definitely not a broken finger. Because...they don't temporarily fix themselves. If it's broke, it's broke.

Hose....if collapsed on pressure, the pedal would be tight and hard at the top. It isn't.
If collapsed on the release, it wouldn't make a godawful noise when released.

As I said first post, I really think one of the shock springs in the disc has come adrift and is occasionally wedging against the flywheel bolts.
Only a teardown will tell us.
 

DrEntropy

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pdplot

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Update. Rolled car out of garage (with wife's help of course). Jacked up right side, slid jack stand under and crawled underneath while wife pushed clutch pedal several times. 1. Rubber boot was broken. 2. The squeak - as Doc said - was from the rod. Nothing. 3. Cylinder rod moved in and out. I don't know how much is normal but it looked like enough to separate the discs. 4. Rubber line was fine. Didn't swell up. 5. No sign of leakage anywhere in system.
I started car and tried to hit 2nd gear before sliding into 1st but it graunched - but then it slid right into 1st and I drove back into the garage accompanied by that howling noise. This is baffling. Any intermittent thing is for sure. Any new ideas.
 
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okay..the howling noise is with your foot fully off the clutch pedal and car moving?
 
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That's not good. If it's quiet without moving, engine running, flywheel/starter are okay. Does the noise increase in frequency as speed increased?

Not familiar with most Alfas, so going on general automotive, but something at the front of the trans/clutch.
 
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pdplot

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Did not increase and stopped after a few seconds as car rolled along. Could it be an unrelated problem? Never heard anything like it. Like a very loud metallic screech. I'll try to video the noise if I can.
 
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Any chance you backed into something, caught the exhaust, and bent the pipe which is now rubbing on a shaft somewhere?
 
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pdplot

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Not that I know of. I'll lay underneath and try to move pipe and muffler - but it's not that kind of noise. Much too loud - almost like a shot alternator bearing and a too-tight fan belt. But it goes away in a matter of seconds. Horrible noise. Crazy.
 
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pdplot

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Update. Determined to learn more about the problem, I started it up in reverse with foot on clutch and rolled out of garage. It made a slight grinding noise in reverse.Tried to put it in first. No go. Grind. Shut off engine, put in first gear (I have a slight uphill driveway) and restarted. Turned right out of driveway and started off. Shifted into 2nd - no problem. Ditto 3rd, 4th and 5th. Drove to gas station. Waiting for space, I tried to shift into first with engine running. Grind. Shut off; started in gear and rolled up to pump. 93 octane. On the way home, about 3 miles, I stopped at light. Put it into 2nd on green light, then into first. Perfect - like nothing had ever been wrong. Drove home shifting like clockwork. Conclusion - the clutch system is fine except for torn rubber boot on slave cylinder. I don't know if they sell the boot separate from the slave cylinder but the cylinders are cheap and it probably wouldn't hurt to change it out. The problem is obviously in the gear box - of which my knowledge is almost nil. Make that nil-although I once successfully rebuilt an MG TD box with the manual in one hand. Something is amiss in there - synchros? How come it shifted perfectly on the drive home? Doc, anybody...is this big bucks - what could be wrong?
 
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