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TR2/3/3A over spray

sp53

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On the edges of the panels like the trunk lid, should I paint the edges first and then paint the main body. I painted the edges sporadically and the then when I went to paint the main body of the panel I got a cloudy over spray on the main center panel. I am using single stage enamel. For me, I am starting to see how important the details are, there are some many things to be aware of went painting.
 

DavidApp

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Headed that way myself.
I will be interested to see the advice that is offered here.

Details.
I think the panel is dent free so I prime it then wet sand it and find low spots. Fill those with the cream filler and it seems perfect so I prime and wet sand and repeat. It is getting better as I am beginning to learn to feel the low spots.

David
 
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Use a guide coat, it will show you the low spots. A cheap way to do is prime car, then use cheap spray can with contrasting color and slightly spray car down. After you block sand, any of the contrasting paint color left will show you low spots.
Marv
 

DavidApp

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When I wet sanded the boot lid I could see some shiny spots that were low. Filled those and sanded again. Have not re primed yet. I think the shiny spot trick was a John hint.

David
 

CJD

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Single stage can be tricky. Clear coat can be used to bring the finish to a high gloss, but when using a single stage without clear you have to be particular about the application to get the gloss.

I was taught to lay down an initial dry coat, and allow that to “tack”. This tack coat will help to hold the following wet coats, and also reduce the tendency to get runs.

The final coat (or two) must be wet. In addition, you must use a tip and flow rate large enough to paint the entire panel before any of it flashes over (begins to dry). This is important, as the paint you have already laid down must remain wet so the following edge will flow into it. If the tip and/or flow rate is too little, then you get dry edges with a dull look from the overspray as the following edge lays down...giving a look of stripes on your panel. In addition to the tip size and flow rate, you can control the flash time with the reducer “temperature” range. A warmer temperature reducer dries slower, and therefore allows for longer spray time before flashing. Likewise, moving the gun slower allows a thicker build...thicker also means a slower flash time. The downside of slower flash time is it’s easier to get runs and sags. It’s a balancing act to get flow rates, layer thickness, and flash times right. When it all comes together, each pass you make will flow nicely into the previous pass, making a consistent gloss across the entire panel.

If you are getting dry spots on the center of the panel, then you need to lay more paint faster, or slow the flash time for the rate you are laying it down. That means open up your flow control more, or slow your motion over the panel. If you have a large tip and have the flow maxed out, then it would be time to find a slower reducer to give you more time to finish the panel before the first stripe flashes.

The edges of each panel are not as obvious to view on the finished car as the middle of the panels. Therefore, I start by spraying the edges first, making a complete circle with the gun and hose around the panel. I then immediately begin spraying the main body of the panel in straight passes, or stripes. On small panels, like doors, you can start at, say, the top edge and stripe your way to the bottom edge. On a bonnet, it is too large to do that way, so I usually start center and work one direction, and then back to center and work the other direction to the edges.

Minor problems in the spray can be repaired with 600-2000 grit paper and buffing. Minor problems would be slight orange peal, dry spots, or minor sags and runs. Of course the paint thickness must be enough to allow the wet sanding (lightly) and buffing with a polishing compound.
 
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sp53

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I just learned the low spot stuff myself Dave having never done body work before, and I found an interesting way to get small high spots down if you miss them. You basically use a mechanical nail set that cocks (they cost about 10 bucks) and it pops out the pointer/set tip when you push down on something hard then go in a spiral circle around the high spot with popper tip size about 1/32 or 1/16 nail set. Pop it on the metal about every ¼ inch as you work to the center. It is basically the same ideal of a body hammer and dolly going around the dent and moving into the center, but on a much small scale.

Marv’s idea of different colors and guide coat is a good one. It took me a while to like that guide coat stuff. Now when I use guide coat, I just blast a few droplets. In the beginning I used way too much. Another ideal that was helpful is I found when wet sanding with 400 and having some scratches that do not come out-- is to use 4 parts primmer one hardener and 2 parts reducer with a fine tip and spray this watery coat over the panel to fill in the scratches.

John I followed every word of what you wrote, and I must say that is some excellent script and explanation. I posted some picture and in one you can see where I have some dull spots by the overhead light blur; my camera is not high quality. Please tell me that looks like it will polish out; lie if you have to. I have 3 coats on the panel, so there should be material to work with. I did the back side first and it came out perfect then on the front I lost my concentration and maybe waited 12 minutes between coats and on the back waited 5 minutes.
 

CJD

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The first 2 pics look beautiful, Steve! What I can see from the lighting the bodywork is flawless...like looking at a mirror I can see your shop lighting entirely undestorted!

In the 3rd pic I do not think you will have any issue buffing that out. With 1 part enamel you do not want to buff until the paint has had several months to dry. If you are using a 2 part enamel, then follow the instructions for buffing, but it can usually be done within a day or two. For finish buffing:

Get a selection of wet sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit. It will not take much, so just a sheet or two of each will finish the entire car. Using a hose for water (with tape around the tip to prevent scratching). Wet sand the panel by hand, no block, starting with 1000-2000 grit. Do not try to sand the edges, as they will cut through too easily, and don’t really show anyway. Concentrate on the large, flatish areas. Also don’t sand any closer to door handles, hinges, or sharp body lines than you can comfortably work the buffer later. Any sharp edge will cut very fast by the buffing pad alone, and needs no sanding. Use largish circular motions while sanding. No back and forth and no concentrating on a single spot.

Now, once you have given the entire panel a quick once over with the 1000-1500 grit, set up your lighting to look very closely. Dry areas, like in your 3rd pic, will still show, and will need a bit more work. For them, use the 600 grit, working very wet and in circular motions. Be very careful not to get any dirt or grit under the paper, as it will make a mess on a fresh finish...and that is why you use a hose instead of a bucket...lots of cleaning water! Gradually work the 600 grit over the dry or otherwise “not perfect” areas, extending a good foot or two around the bad area to prevent “cupping” right at the bad spot. Once it is almost sanded out...but not all the way!!, then switch to 1000 grit to remove the marks from the 600. Then use 1500 to remove the marks from the 1000...and finish with 2000 grit. You will get a feel how much to leave at the 600 sanding, so by the time you work the area to 2000 grit the dry patch is only barely visible. Always leave just a bit of dry area for the buffer to finish out. If you go too far, you cut through and have to respray...obviously not fun! It is better to stop too soon, as you can always do the process a second (or third) time if needed, rather than cut through all the paint and have to respray.

After the sanding with the 1500-2000 grit, the surface will look glossy already! Dry off your panel and inspect it. Any bad areas should be almost perfect....but still be barely visible when you study it closely. Then it is time to buff.

Those orbital buffers take forever. I bought one once and threw it away. They are good for waxing a car, but takes forever for buffing one. The best buffers simply spin a 10-12” cotton pad and usually have 1200-2400 rpm settings. The 1200 speed keeps from spitting out your compound when you first put the buffer to it. The 2400 is for actual buffing. You do not hold the pad flat, but always have a very slight, like 5 degree angle, so that only one side of the pad is in contact with the surface. The buffer ALWAYS moves! It never stays still or it will cut into the panel and leave deep swirl marks. ALso, never press the buffer into the panel. No more pressure than the weight of the buffer will do the job, or you did not sand enough. Never buff the edges! The buffer will cut through a freshly painted edge in a couple seconds...way to fast to control. Only buff the main body of the panel up to the edge, but not over it. If you need to do an edge, best to do it by hand for best control without cutting through.

Use a buffing compound. I like 3m “Finesse”, which is available from most paint stores. Just squirt a few drops and buff over the area. If it seems the buffer stops cutting, then add a few more drops of polish and continue. When you are close, clean the buffer pad by spinning it upside down and use the tip of a blade screw driver to break up the build up of polishing compound, therebye re-exposing the bare cotton strings. Once the pad is clean and dry, make your final pass over the panel, using only VERY light pressure. This removes the last of the visible swirls.

Once your happy, finish with a good wax or silicone sealer.

Sorry so long winded. I never got around to buffing my TR2, so I never had a chance to cover that on the build thread. Maybe you can post your buffing experience for everyone to follow...!
 

DavidApp

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Not long winded just thorough.

Now all I have to do is remember a fraction of it as I spray the car.
May get it printed up and hang the prints around the shop as reminders.

Thank you John for the detailed explanations.

David
 
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sp53

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Thanks John you are very kind; my camera is very forgiving. I went to look at buffers and their house brand was 80 bucks and the Dewalt was 250. And that is at the body shop store.

I posted the picture of the saw horse rack because I thought it might be helpful. Those are the horse I built so the tub would be above the frame and I could move the frame when I wanted to save space. Now they doubling as a rack that I would not have thought of if not for Tex-N

John you mentioned you would paint the hood from the center out and back. I can see why now because I had a difficult time making the swing across the entire trunk panel and that is probably why I got the dull spot.

I thinking out doing the rear fenders tomorrow and was think of how to place them so I can move easily and if I should just do one at a time. I say one at a time because I am painting outside and now I can see the over spray better. My fear is I will get the panel shinny and clean and then the over spray from the next panel will fog up the first one. Perhaps I am over thinking it.
 

DavidApp

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While visiting a forum member he suggested that panels that abut one another should be sprayed at the same time to avoid colour changes in the mixing to spray. I am thinking of trying to get all one side laid out to spray then the other side. Not sure how much difference you would see in a shade of white.

I do plan to get some extra mixed up as I am a bit worried I may be a drop short. So fat All I have done is the bottom of the body and inside the body.
A pint over is better than a cup short. Need some more Activator anyway because they messed up the first colour mix and the redid it for me.

David
 
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sp53

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You are going smooth and steady Dave that is all we can do. I am kinda perplexed about the buffer situation. I should pony up and get the Dewalt, but I am going to take a look at HF anyway and see if they have the RPM that John suggested. I guess everyone likes the electric stuff, and I thought it was for the constant speed, say 1000 to 1500. John used examples of the cleaner flying out if there was too much speed. Now I see 6 speed electric; why not air it is mush simple. My gut tells my go electric with 1000 to 1500 because John made it make sense.

Anyways I am getting what I thought was general dirt on my panels, but know I am thinking it might general grab from inside the compressor, so I am going to look for some of those inline filters.
 

DavidApp

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Filter for water or crud?

I did the John water trap system with lengths of copper pipe to help condense the water vapor. Works well.

David

Air pipe setup.jpg
 

CJD

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Your’s is much neater than my pipe work, David. That gives me goose bumps looking at yours!

Steve, the most important thing is that you have a rotary buffer instead of the “orbital” type...speed is secondary, as you will learn to make due with whatever you have. Even a single speed will work when you learn to “bump” the switch when first starting on fresh compound. Just find the best deal...and air is awesome, as you can control the speed with the valve button. My most recent buffer is a variable speed Makita that I like...but probably to expensive unless you can find it on sale. Any sale buffer will be the best choice...I even used a Sears for 10 years!
 

DavidApp

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Thank you John

Always amazed how much water comes out of the drain line. I am in Georgia where we have humidity that can be high.

Always drain the tank as well and the trap after the tank.

David
 

Scot1966

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Filter for water or crud?

I did the John water trap system with lengths of copper pipe to help condense the water vapor. Works well.

David

View attachment 54204

David or John. Can one of you explain or show me a diagram of the "John water trap system" ? I have a water trap, but it also can get very humid in CT. I'm looking at the picture, but can't see all the piping. Just a pencil scetch would be appreciated.

Thanks, Scot
 

ChrisTR2TR4

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up at the top of the photo, you'll see some copper pipe going back and forth. It cools the air in the pipe and allows some of the moisture to condense and flow down to the vertical pipes below. I use a coil of copper pipe zip tied to an old window fan with similar results.
 

CJD

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Hey Scot,

It’s not my system at all, but just a down-sized way of following good compressed air practices. In general, you set up your piping as follows:

1. Use copper, mainly for best heat transfer without getting corrosion in the pipes. Use the largest diameter pipe, to slow the air flow speed, and therebye reduce the tendency of the air to “blow” the condensed water back into suspension.

2. For each run of piping, you must have a slope in the direction of the air flow, so as the water condenses out of the hot air, it will drain forward and downward.

3. If you must have a low spot, then include a “T” with a pipe going straight down and a valve to drain the water which will accumulate there. ANY low spot will accumulate water, so you must have a way to get it out of the main flow.

4. For each fitting you plan to use to tap into the system, use a “T” that takes the pipe upward!! That way the condensed water will stay down, and mostly air will come out of your tap.

5. At the end of each run of pipe, have a down pipe with a drain valve. Again, the final tap should initially go up, to avoid water following the air.

That’s really it! Chris’ has a great idea with a fan for a heat exchanger, but you must design the cooling coil to have no low spots. In a low spot water will accumulate and then “spit” down the pipe in large clumps, eventually overwhelming your separators. The coil cooler would have to zig-zag downward with a drain at the bottom, or coil downward to a single low spot at the bottom...and again a drain valve there. The goal would be to have the air at the final tap right at ambient temp...to minimize condensation. Unfortunately, even if you could reach ambient temp, when you open the tap the pressure and temp fall in the lines and more water will condense...but at least it will be a minimum.

That’s it. Not really a system, but just “best practice” to eliminate water for painting or sand blasting.

Oh...on the final tap, where I plan to access the air for painting, I use double filter/separators as a final chance to eliminate water. And even here in TX, with 40% humidity max, I still get water in the final taps.

David pretty much followed the best practice perfectly! After reading this, you should be able to pick out of his pic the reason for each seemingly redundant down-pipe.
 

Scot1966

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Thanks Chris, and thank you John. The picture makes perfect sense now. John, sorry you had to type so much !
Scot
 

ChrisTR2TR4

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I should have typed more. 😁 my fan/coil assy is in the compressor room and there's a good 12 ft of vertical run and 3 drops between that and the final dryer. Last thing I want is water running through the gun.
 
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