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Thread: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

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    Jedi Knight Got_All_4's Avatar
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    Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    Just did a search to see if there were any new water pump and pulley combinations out there, or did Moss fix their problem set up which I got one of. After driving the 3 for 30 years and after doing a freshen up on my TR3A which consisted of new and up-rated engine parts I noticed a noise while hand turning the water pump. I installed it anyways and there was this loud creaking noise which sounded like it was coming from the pump. So reading about the up-rated pumps Moss had I ordered one from my local distributor. I had to file the key-way down to fit but no big deal "I thought". Within the first couple of months there was this a wobbling noise and you can see the pulley "original" moving around so i and went and purchased a new Moss pulley. Took about 2 hours but I was able to oversize the slot in the shaft by using die grinders and a dremmel tool to fit the 1/8" key. To ensure a tight fit I used some glue to hold it together. After about 800 miles I'm back to the same problem. Pulley wobbling like crazy.

    My thinking is to do one of two things. Ether go back to an original rebuilt pump if I can get the original parts without machining the housing and shaft to fit. I was researching the problem on BCF and saw a post Randal did where he said the bearings in the new rebuild kits don't fit and require machining. Got access to old pumps too so I'm not scared to do a rebuild ether but not interested in doing a bunch of machining. 2nd would be is to shove a bunch of hi-temp epoxy adhesive on the shaft and bolt it on and hope for the best. There has to be some damage to the shaft too and I'm thinking the epoxy would fill the voids. Might be crazy on that second set of thinking but getting frustrated . Spent a bunch of $ and time on what should be a simple fix and I just want it fixed for good!

    One thing I did notice that the up-rated pump did run a bit cooler. The original pump ran smack dab in the middle of the temp gauge and the up-rated on ran just a bit left of center. Not sure it's a good thing but it must have moved more water then the original one. However the original never had any overheating problems after I fixed the air movement problems.

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    Yoda Gliderman8's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    I have successfully used metal shim material (various thicknesses) placed inside the keyway slot to take up any "slop". You may have to use different thicknesses to come up with the right combination to get a tight fit.
    Elliot
    Central PA
    1976 TR6 White/Biscuit interior SOLD
    1973 TR6 Damson Plum / Biscuit interior, HVDA 5-speed, Good Parts Hubs
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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    Yoda CJD's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    I tried my best to rebuild OEM pumps. The parts are not made new, and the NOS is about dried up. VB says they sell a seal...but it doesn't work.

    The result is you are stuck with repro. I have never had any long term success with hand modifying shafts and keyways. If there is any oversize in your work (which is inevitable doing it by hand) then the slop will increase until you get a wobble. Once that happens the game is over for that shaft and pulley set. I recommend you do what I did. Pick a supplier and buy both the pump and pulley from the same place. Then they will guaranty it will fit as a set. Then, a very common issue is the foundry pouring the repro pumps casts a boss on the bearing snout that contacts the inside of the pulley. That results in a "chirping" or "chattering" sound as you drive. It won't hurt anything, but it is annoying when it is louder than your exhaust note! Grind just a few thousands off the boss before you mount the pulley, and all will be awrite!

    The "creaking" noise you heard on your original pump sounds like the oversized boss issue. All it takes to fix that is removing a few thousands off the pump snout boss area. As far as I know...that issue is still rampant in the repro pumps, but it is very easy to resolve.
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Jedi Knight
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    4,
    With your continuing problems with the water pumps could some of it be caused by having the belt a bit to tight. I went through two water pumps in rapid succession before I backed off on the belt tightness. I have not had to replace another one since then-- about 5 years ago. I have noticed that some of the new six bladed pumps have a poor shaft and key way set up. So I have not gone back to any of those.
    Charley
    1962 TR4
    1963 TR4
    1959 TR3A A work in progress.

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    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    FWIW, the repro pump & pulley I got from TRF a few years back fit and worked perfectly.

    Because of the way the pulley overhangs the pump, it is important that the pulley be a tight fit on the shaft, even without the key. If you can move it with your fingers (without the key), then it is definitely too loose and will fail in service.

    Also FWIW, I discovered that Yesterday's Tractor sells a seal that should fit. It was backordered last summer (so I bought a new pump instead), but did eventually come in. Unfortunately, by that time I was busy with other things and didn't get around to trying it. http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Fe..._825374M1.html
    As a side comment, the pump itself as used on the Ferguson TEA20 appears to be the same; but the pulley is different. Rather than the pulley mounting directly to the shaft, there is a hub that gets pressed onto the shaft and then the pulley and fan bolts to that. Probably a better arrangement, as the hub is made from mild steel rather than cast iron.
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Yoda Geo Hahn's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    Quote Originally Posted by TR3driver View Post
    ...Because of the way the pulley overhangs the pump, it is important that the pulley be a tight fit on the shaft, even without the key. If you can move it with your fingers (without the key), then it is definitely too loose and will fail in service...


    You definitely want that pulley to be a super tight fit. Mine is tight enough that I need to use a puller to remove it. I carry a spare when travelling so I also carry the puller:






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    Jedi Knight Got_All_4's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    I learned that lesson about a too tight of a fan belt many years ago when I went through 2 generators in a short time. Good point though and I will double check the tension.
    I checked last year with TRF and they no longer sell a water pump set. Little nervous about buying separate parts. Doing some research today I see VB shows they have a set. Anyone used it? i do remember just sliding the pulley easily onto the pump shaft. Had a problem with the key staying in so I glued it in.

    Geo that pulley is awesome! Any chance of getting some measurements? Also are you turning the nuts or the head of the bolts to create tension to remove the pulley. I'm thinking he nuts can be welded to the angle iron for conveyance.

    Does anyone know how the shaft in the unrated pumps comes out and how to remove the fins? I've got a lathe and a mill where I could turn a bronze bushing, cut a keyway in it and press fit it into the pulley. Turn or dress up the shaft and ream the inside of the bushing to a tight fit over the shaft. All that depends on getting the shaft out to the pump housing.

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    Yoda CJD's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    That’s a lot of work when a new pump an pulley is only $110 from TRF. I never trust VB for precision parts.

    The rotor is pressed and soldered on the original pumps. Most repros have lock rings between the bearings...several different systems I’ve seen. They take some study to figure out which way to look for the locks and press.
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Yoda TR4nut's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    I don’t have the seller name handy but there is an eBay seller that has in the past sold rebuilt originals, machines to accept new bearings. I have one on my 3A for a couple of years now and no issues. The seller is still there though now he is just selling the rebuild kits.

    in my TR4 I am using a pump from BPNW- no pulley wobble so far. Will be acid testing next month on a tour to California. The spare pump is in the boot!
    Randy
    70 TR6 - running
    59 TR3A - slumbering
    64 TR4 - got another one!

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    Senior Member ckeithjordan's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    I recommend having your pump rebuilt by Flying Dutchman. See:

    http://water-pump-rebuilders.com/

    I had mine done for $145 plus shipping. It took about a week.

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    Obi Wan Sarastro's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    Interesting thread. I recently installed a new Lucas 5-blade water pump onto the pump body, and experienced everything you guys described. The slot in the pump shaft for the Woodruff key was simply too wide and shallow, and it was not circular. To make the pulley fit, I had to grind a bit off the curve of the key, but that didn't solve the fact that the key was still loose in the slot. The idea of using some shim stock to tighten it up sounds good to me--I may yet take it apart again and do that.

    If I had known about this and the Flying Dutchman before buying the pump, I probably would have gone that route.
    Steve Maas
    1966 Triumph TR4A, undergoing restoration: http://www.nonlintec.com/tr4a
    1952 MG TD, restoration completed 2014, sold 2016: http://www.nonlintec.com/mgtd
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    I can attest to the skill of the dutchman, he's done a few pumps for me and in about a week. He even offered to fix a Moss pump that was sent to me with the impeller installed wrong. I would not recommend his 5 blade impeller upgrade, I did it on my 4a and it seemed as though it moved to much water and cavitated at high rpm. The tell was hot running at high rpm but immediate cool down below 2500 rpm.

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    Jedi Knight
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    Steve,
    An alternative way is to start with a larger key and cut it down to fit the key way of the shaft. It took me awhile to get it right. But it is on very solid. But I have not started using this pump yet, so do not know how long it will last.
    Charley
    1962 TR4
    1963 TR4
    1959 TR3A A work in progress.

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    Jedi Knight Got_All_4's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    John, I know that sounds like a lot of work but got over $100 in it now and I got some machining skills and most of the equipment to do it. Just don't have a way to machine a keyway in the bushing. Got some friends that work in machine shops. I'll have to ask for a government job. Thinking about it some more and a more simpler way may be to drill a hole through the pulley and the shaft and out the other side. Then press in a roll pin. Along with the keyway should be enough tension to hold everything tightly together.

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    Jedi Knight Got_All_4's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    Thought I would post these pics. Going to try to fix the shaft. Any ideas how to get it out. There is a snap ring on the top bearing. Just from looks it looks like it will just press out. Put concerned that there can be a clip inside holding something together. Possibly the outer bearing was put in last. This is the up rated Moss pump.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Yoda CJD's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    If I were going to repair it...I’d reweld the entire OD, filling in the keyway. Then machine and grind the shaft as new. Personally I wouldn’t put that much time into a part that is readily available, though
    John

    1955 TR2

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    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    IMO there is a good chance you can just press the shaft back out of the front bearing. The rear bearing may or may not come with it.

    But, the force to press the shaft out is going to be applied to the bearing balls. You can support the inner race when assembling, but not when removing. Unless it comes out really easy, I'd consider replacing the bearing as even the slightest damage will lead to early failure (and may not be detectable at the time).

    Also wouldn't hurt to measure how far the shaft sticks out now before you take it apart. There certainly should be a clip or shoulder behind the inner race (to positively locate the shaft once the pulley is installed up against the front of the inner race); but you never know. There were some 6 vane pumps long ago where the shaft was just pressed into the races, and could be knocked out of place while installing the pulley. (I think I might have one of those still on the shelf, not certain.)
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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    Jedi Knight Got_All_4's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    My thinking is what do I have to loose. I may still have to buy a new pump if this gets damaged or I can figure it out and we all will benefit from the efforts. At lease we'll know how it comes apart and I'm sure there will be someone else in the future that's going to run into this problem. As far as the cost verses effort if I can do it for minimal cost I'm all for that, especially when I got over a 10k bill between cars (daily drivers) and household stuff.
    Good thinking Randal on the measurements. I'll measure the gap between the housing and the impeller and also the length of the shaft. I have some freeze spray I sell and I should be able to shrink the shaft a bit while pressing it out. May relieve some pressure on the races. Only going to be able to get the outer bearing though. My hope is the shaft will press out all the way with out any clips. Then it becomes a easy fix.

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    Yoda Geo Hahn's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    I have a VHS tape of a TR3 water pump rebuild that I got from Fred Thomas many years ago. I am unsure how one gets that from the VCR to YouTube.

    Maybe something as basic as video recording the TV with the tape playing will yield something useful.

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    Great Pumpkin TR3driver's Avatar
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    Re: Water Pump "Here I Go Again"

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Hahn View Post
    I have a VHS tape of a TR3 water pump rebuild that I got from Fred Thomas many years ago. I am unsure how one gets that from the VCR to YouTube.

    Maybe something as basic as video recording the TV with the tape playing will yield something useful.
    I believe Costco still offers a service to transfer VHS to DVD.

    Or there are relatively inexpensive adapters that lets you record any video source (like your VHS player) directly on a PC. Eg https://www.amazon.com/REDGO-Video-C...3CK1KFNQYW91N6
    Randall
    56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
    71 Stag LE1473L waiting engine rebuild
    71-72-73 Stag LE2013LBW waiting OD gearbox rebuild

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