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Bloody "bleeding" issue

kkaa

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Hi Guys, as always thanks in advance!!

We had to replace our oil seal in the rear hubs and all went well till we tried to bleed the brakes. Man-o-man, muscle failure and aggravation!

The shop and Haynes manual say to adjust the rear drums till they're tight - locked up, go to the front and slacken (but we have disc so no way we know of) then start at the furthest bleeder and work around till all the air's out.

For the bleeding, we bought and installed the Russel speed bleeders and started at the passenger drum. We tightened them down, backed off 3/4ths a turn and after no kidding, 2hrs, were still getting air. We make sure to top off and not run dry but no matter the amount, still air. From here i was thinking maybe the grummet thats attaching to the bleed line was letting air in, so went to each wheel and followed the procedure but still get bubbles and more directly, no pedal. Some times it's kinda there, but the second you slacken it's gone.

We pulled the outlet from the master cylinder, capped it and was hard as a rock! Last, we used a pair of vice grips and "pinched" off the supply to the fronts one at a time, tried to pump and no change. Then we popped up the battery cover, pinched the main supply to the back brakes, same thing, no change with pumping.

During all the bleeding I have a small mitivac connected to the lines pulling.

Should we just swap the master? I do have a spare, can't tell if its a clutch or brake and thinking it's the same?

Thanks guys

Kurt

We are NOT leaking anywhere under the car, from any points.
 
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Re: Bloody "bleeding" issue ugg!

not sure what a mitivac is but when i tried my vacuum pump i was pulling air around the bleed valve. i used it to get fluid to everything but then i did the old "brake pedal pump" after that to bleed them the rest of the way.

you can also just clamp off the flex lines to isolate front or rear. make sure you have a good pedal with either.
 

steveg

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Re: Bloody "bleeding" issue ugg!

The proper order is LR, RR, LF, RF - refer to the Moss drawings of the pipe sets to confirm this - it's all about the pipe length away from the master cylinder.
Also you can wrap the bleeder threads with teflon tape and/or pack grease around the bleeder threads - to keep air from leaking in. This sounds like the reason you keep getting air.

Suggest searching the many previous threads here about all aspects of the bleeding process.

The speed bleeders leak air around the threads same as all the others - see above.

Since you're "we", suggest this: in the order per above, with the threads sealed per above - for each wheel: connect tubing to bleeder, down into jar with a little fluid in the bottom. With bleeder closed, have assistant pump pedal several times in rapid succession; quickly open bleeder and let air and fluid burst out into jar, then just as quickly close the bleeder. Repeat on each wheel until the air stops coming. You can help by holding the bleeder tight in against the threads.
 

Lin

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Re: Bloody "bleeding" issue ugg!

The proper order is LR, RR, LF, RF - refer to the Moss drawings of the pipe sets to confirm this - it's all about the pipe length away from the master cylinder.
Steve is exactly correct about the proper order;however, I do believe that in our case it is the distance from the pipe union mounted on the Front RH side of the car rather than the distance from the master cylinder. Minor point, but it does explain the order.
Lin
 
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kkaa

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Re: Bloody "bleeding" issue ugg!

Thanks Steve and Lin!!

We (me and anyone i could trick to come in the garage with me and pump a pedal, kids quit early, wife hit muscle failure 20 min in, ha!) started out with a brand new set of speed bleeders and the catch can. The can is 1/4ths full of fluid and tube goes to that bottle so as not to let air back.

I attached it to the LR, opened the bleeder 3/4ths of a turn and it still felt tight (think that's the thread sealant), and pumped slow and smooth. No fluid came out around the threads, and filled that bottle with no less than 4 liters over 30 min and still had air bubbles.

I attached the minivac to the line, (this is a air compressor bleeding unit) and let that run and still saw air and no pedal.

That's when we plugged off the outlet on the master and it was a rock hard pedal. Could this still be a failed master if it's rock hard?

We went at it again but this time attached the minivac to the line, (this is a air compressor bleeding unit) and let that run and still saw air and no pedal. Finally, we used vice grips to "hold off" fluid from each of the fronts, 1 at a time and still no change and then went to the union that connects the back of the car, so in essence blocking fluid off both rears at the same time and didn't notice a change.

To prep the who car, we locked up the drums by using the adjuster nut in the back of the drum, and now just not sure what to do...

If you say go back to square 1 and bleed LR, I'll do it till the sun don't shine, i won't give up... just want to eliminate any mechanical possibility.
 
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steveg

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Well, master cylinders are relatively inexpensive so you might as well install a new one.

You might try in-situ bench bleeding of the master cylinder. That's where you hook up a short piece of old tubing to the output port and run clear tubing back into the reservoir. Then you pump the MC until no bubbles seen. Search the archives for bench bleed or recirculating bleed.
 
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kkaa

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I do have a spare if it's the same as the clutch?? It's a PIA job, so does it sound dead? Weird, all we did was pull the hubs to change a friggen oil seal and this all happened, uggggggg

Well, master cylinders are relatively inexpensive so you might as well install a new one.

You might try in-situ bench bleeding of the master cylinder. That's where you hook up a short piece of old tubing to the output port and run clear tubing back into the reservoir. Then you pump the MC until no bubbles seen. Search the archives for for bench bleed or recirculating bleed.
 
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red57

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If you bleed the old fashioned way, you don't need speed bleeders or minivacs or any other gimmicks.

Two person operation:
All bleed screws closed tight.
Person 1 pumps until some pressure/pedal is felt then hold pedal down with pressure.
Person 2 cracks bleed screw until pressure gone.
As soon as pressure is gone, Person 2 closes bleed screw before person 1 releases pedal.
Repeat until no air bubbles are seen.
Move on the next wheel & repeat until you have done all 4 wheels.
If pedal is soft/mushy, repeat the above and look for any more bubbles.

Key is the bleeder valve must be closed before you release the pedal, that way no air can get in the system around the bleeder screws.

Note: with new dry system, at the beginning you may not feel any pressure after several pumps, if so, then pump a few, hold down and crack the bleeder & repeat - as you get air out the pedal will develop more pressure.

With this process, I do it alone by using a stick as a prop between the pedal and the dash to hold the pedal down against pressure while I run to the wheel and crack the bleeder.
Racing means lots of brake bleeding and I bled brakes regularly but my wife got very tired of the "honey, can you come pump a while?", thus the stick method to avoid requiring help.

Try this method, what do you have to lose?

Also, if you get pressure when the master is cylinder outlet is plugged, I don't think you need a new master.
Dave
 
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kkaa

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Ok boys here we go! Im going to try it now and report back in a few. Im in the shop with new motivation!

If you bleed the old fashioned way, you don't need speed bleeders or minivacs or any other gimmicks.

Two person operation:
All bleed screws closed tight.
Person 1 pumps until some pressure/pedal is felt then hold pedal down with pressure. (note: with new dry system, you may not feel any pressure after several pumps, if so, then pump a few, hold down and crack the bleeder & repeat - as you get air out the pedal will develop more pressure)
Person 2 cracks bleed screw until pressure gone.
As soon as pressure is gone, Person 2 closes bleed screw before person 1 releases pedal.
Repeat until no air bubbles are seen.
Move on the next wheel & repeat until you have done all 4 wheels.
If pedal is soft/mushy, repeat the above and look for any more bubbles.

Key is the bleeder valve must be closed before you release the pedal, that way no air can get in the system around the bleeder screws.

With this process, I do it alone by using a stick as a prop between the pedal and the dash to hold the pedal down against pressure while I run to the wheel and crack the bleeder.
Racing means lots of brake bleeding and I bled brakes regularly but my wife got very tired of the "honey, can you come pump a while?", thus the stick method to avoid requiring help.

Try this method, what do you have to loose?

Also, if you get pressure when the master is cylinder outlet is plugged, I don't think you need a new master.
Dave
 
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kkaa

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Hi guys, check out the video and you can see where we are. Getting lots of bubbles back filling in the rez when you stop pumping, all bleeders are closed. Thinking this is good and will keep doing it thinking it's a simple place to bleed from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaQOpNN2ZQE
 
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steveg

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What was the ka-chunking in the background? Was it the assistant pumping?

You must be sucking air into the master cyl past the piston and blowing it into the reservoir.

Also - didn't see your clutch reservoir nested inside the main reservoir.
 

Healey Nut

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Crack the flare connections on the hose as close to the front calipers as you can get and let gravity do some work for you , once you get fluid at the loose connection then start the pump n bleed method .
 
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kkaa

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What was the ka-chunking in the background? Was it the assistant pumping?

You must be sucking air into the master cyl past the piston and blowing it into the reservoir.

Also - didn't see your clutch reservoir nested inside the main reservoir.


Hi Steve!!

Yes, that was Jeanne and each time she stopped, you would see the bubbles coming back into the rez. Theres NO leaks anywhere, so question, do you think the master is toast? The clutch one is there, just bad video....

If you want another view or a longer video, let me know... I hate to give up and bring somewhere because we build this car from scratch. The kids and i stripped her to metal and built it from the ground up, every part and piece, so to loose on bleeding brakes would kill me.. HA!

Thanks everyone, Kurt
 
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kkaa

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Great idea... We did do a gravity bleed on the first attempt, opened them all until they "weeped". The way we did this was to first do it without bleeders, let them drip, then put in bleeders and let them drip and began the bleeding process. WE went around the car so many times that the speed bleeder threads began to get too easy and lost their seal. We could have taped, but had another set of new ones which is what we have in now.

Crack the flare connections on the hose as close to the front calipers as you can get and let gravity do some work for you , once you get fluid at the loose connection then start the pump n bleed method .
 

red57

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In your video you can clearly see that the pumping is sending fluid out into the lines towards the wheels because the level goes down. Because the bleed screws are closed the air in the lines is compressing. When you stop pumping the slightly compressed air in the lines pushes fluid and some air back into the reservoir through the port inside the master that opens when the pedal is fully up - this is why the air & fluid are coming back into the reservoir when you release the pedal. This suggests to me the master is working fine since it is pushing fluid out when the pedal is depressed and you are creating a small pressure you may not feel in the pedal.

All you need to do is pump like shown in the video and hold down the pedal rather than releasing and then crack a bleed screw as I described above and Healey Nut also said above "then start the pump n bleed method".

I still think the problem is with the speedy bleeders, just use the stock bleed screws with a piece of tubing on it to a container - you don't need tape or grease to seal the bleeder threads and the end of the tube does not need to be submerged in fluid in the catch can because you never lift the pedal with the bleed valve open, therefore never creating a vacuum to suck in any air.

Dave
 

Bob_Spidell

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I think I'd replace the speed bleeders with 'regular' ones and try again before I replaced the MC (IIRC, yours is new?). You usually only need to bleed brakes, unless you have a problem, every few years--on principle and to refresh the fluid--and a lot of people probably don't even do that. Ratcheting end wrenches work well on bleeders. FWIW I pressure bleed my Healeys' brakes, sometimes finishing with the 'pump the pedal' method to make doubly sure any air is out.

My dad and I had a problem bleeding the brakes on his '47 Chevy 2-ton. We finally found out that the bleeder seat in one of the wheel cylinders was cracked, allowing air in and making it impossible to get a good pedal. If you've gotten frustrated and really torqued down a bleeder it's easy enough to do.
 
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kkaa

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Thanks guys!

We just ordered a set of regular bleeders an since we have some time, going back too it when jeanne gets home, ha! Ill do exactly as described and pump till we feel the resistance, hold, crack bleeder, close bleeder, release pedal. Well follow, pass rear, driver rear, pass front, driver front. Ill post a vid....

The more i think of our testing, blocking the out and its rock hard, no leaks, it has to be us.
 

RDKeysor

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For what it is worth, Norman Knock, in his book Tech Talk, discourages the use of "pressure bleeding methods" as not being recommended for Girling brake systems (p. 237). I had tried to bleed my BN7's brakes with a Mighty Vac, a tool I had used on other cars, and was unsuccessful. I read what Norman said and abandoned that tool for that job. We have all had our misadventures blessing Healey brakes, that's for sure.
 

Bob_Spidell

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For what it is worth, Norman Knock, in his book Tech Talk, discourages the use of "pressure bleeding methods" as not being recommended for Girling brake systems (p. 237). I had tried to bleed my BN7's brakes with a Mighty Vac, a tool I had used on other cars, and was unsuccessful. I read what Norman said and abandoned that tool for that job. We have all had our misadventures blessing Healey brakes, that's for sure.

Wonder why. I haven't seen anything in Girling systems--how many of us still have 100% Girling brakes, anyway?--that suggest they're significantly different from any other manufacturer (except maybe the rubber components). I use 10psi or less, and have never had any problems over 130K miles.
 
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