All the coolant in the wrong place

I have been asked to get a 76 Midget back on the road. I pulled the dipstick and found gray "milkshake". The entire cooling system is dry. In a 50 degree garage, it took over 30 minutes for that goo to drain. In total, almost three gallons of that mung.

This is a 15,000 mile car, and has never been stored outside. The engine is now on an engine stand, and the head and oil pan have been removed. The cylinders, pistons, and combustion chambers look fine. The head was "stuck" to the head gasket. Once off and the head gasket carefully removed, I could not see any "tracks" that would indicate a blown gasket. The rockers and pushrods have rusty "hair" and fuzz on them.

My experience with LBCs are a 70 GT6 and 80 TR8. I did mechanical restorations on both. Never fooled with an British four cylinders.

The block will be completely disassembled tomorrow, and I will have the block and head cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaning tank at a machine shop I use for BMW head work. After that the head will be pressure checked. Not sure what I will do with the block.

Questions ---
1) What are the common cooling system failures on these engine?
2) If the head gasket was secure, how can these engines pump the entire contents of the cooling system into the sump?
3) How common are cracked heads and/or blocks on these?

FWIW, when I looked at the goo that was in the lifters, there was actually some green coolant trapped under the goo.

ALL input is welcomed.

The infamous brass plug between 2 & 3 could be the culprit. Needs replacing while head is off anyway. Drill out, tap, and insert a brass screw, mill down when you send the head in to get head skimmed flat. rCar could have overheated and warped the head.

I'd be inclined to agree -- I, too, suffered the dreaded blanking plug failure on my 1275. Fortunately, I caught it before the damage got out of hand and didn't get the oil / antifreeze goo mixture. Although, when I pulled the head, there was a nice little pool of antifreeze on the top of the piston.

Agree that if the brass plug in the middle of the head has lifted it is a likely cause but I believe the normal crack checking might be required. The leaking plug shouldn't allow coolant to get to the lifters....only down the piston bores. It wasn't fitted with a copper head gasket was it? They are notorious for failure on a A series and while we are at it only a black Palen composite gasket should be used.

Kurt.

Oddly, my brass blanking plug failure only resulted in poor firing (as there was communication between 2 and 3), but minimal coolant involvement.

I've had other head-gasket failures though that did result in substantial coolant loss.

Presuming the head is coming off, and you have little to no history on it, I'd take the opportunity to re-build (the head)... which can range from hand-grinding the valves/valves-seats to a complete machine-shop go-over. A shop will check for cracks or warping first; they can then insure that the face is truly flat, grind valves seats (possibly replace valves), etc.

Well, I lied !!!!!!! It's a 76 1500 !!

Bob Buxbaum said:

Well, I lied !!!!!!! It's a 76 1500 !!

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Of course it is. Saw the '76 and it never even registered back to head gasket.

Oh, how did I miss that. Totally different can of worms that I'm not familiar with. Other than something weird about the sleeves and how the fit the head????

Kurt.

MY bad. The owner said it was a 74. As I was tearing down the engine, the diagrams did not match. So, dumbphuq ME, I looked at the VIN tag. So, there was that ...............

The truly amazing thing is that ALL of the coolant was in the oil pan. I drained 3 gallons of thick gray goo out of the oil pan. It took almost FORTY FIVE MINUTES. Seriously. Think a cold can of STP.

Bob, quick response now - I can respond more fully later. First of all, went back to look at the pics you posted and - rubber bumper! Doh!

so, of course '76 ('74s were still chrome bumper.)

So, what you are looking at is a Triumph Spitfire engine - British Leyland couldn't make two engines smog compliant and had developed the 1275 about as far as they could by 1975 so they put the Triumph engine in the Midget for the last few years.

So, still not sure why all the gunk - it may be completely unrelated ie. someone added it later?

That said, you will likely want to

1. check/replace the head/ head gasket

2. Replace the thrust bearings - the "actual" most vulnerable part of the car.

3. likely replace the rings as even they have been soaking in that much oil

4. crankshaft bearings.

Having said all of that, and with a 15k car you might want to

1. remove the smog stuff which is likely still on it.

2. Ditch the Zenith Stromberg carb - a fiddly carb at best and designed to run best with the smog stuff on. I would recommend a rear HS4 carb from an MGB. It did have twin SU's in Britain but, you need to notch the passenger inner fender to make it fit. The HS4 fits with about 10 minutes of filing the bolt holes.

3. Fit a manual choke - the '76s had a water choke - I have bever seen one that wasn't broken.

On the plus side, by 76 the engine had an unleaded head already and an electronic ignition (I am told it is the same as the Chevette) The ignition is extrememly reliable. I would also note that because of the smog stuff it actually has vacuum retard instead of advance. I was told to disconnect and plug the vacuum by Jeff Schlemmer of Advance Distributers - I did and it works fine.

Thanks John. The owner wants it back in running condition for resale. She is retiring, needs the money, and has no use for the car. That said, while all the suggested mods would be beneficial to a future owner, they will have to do it. My jobs is to correct existing problems to allow resale.

At only 15,000 mile, the only engine wear issues are because of the 3 gallons of gray muck. So ..

Engine is out and fully torn down.
Crank is being polished and I will measure it.
Rod and main bearings will be ordered depending on wear of the crank.
Bores are clean, but since a complete piston set is under $200, that is what will go back in.
No cam thrust play.
No crank thrust play.
Cam looks good.

What kills me is how EVERY ounce of coolant wound up in the sump. The head and block are at the best head shop in the Kansas City region. They will be tanked in an ultra sonic cleaning tank, the head will be pressure tested, and if they have fixtures, so will the block. I could find no failure points or tracks on the head and block mating surfaces, and the head gasket was well stuck to both and showed no signs of failure.

Bob....WHAT EVER HAPPENED WITH THE DIAGNOSIS OF THE ORIGIN OF THE GREY MUCK?? (sorry for yelling, but we're all on pins and needles here)

Thom

73 Midget
'Midge'

doc50 said:

Bob....WHAT EVER HAPPENED WITH THE DIAGNOSIS OF THE ORIGIN OF THE GREY MUCK?? (sorry for yelling, but we're all on pins and needles here)

Thom

73 Midget
'Midge'

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My opinion is that by accident or design the coolant was poured into the engine - as opposed to leaked. Small children playing mechanic or some such thing.

I retrieved the head and block from the machine shop after being cleaned and pressure tested. NO cracks or leaks. As I was reassembling and reinstalling the power train and cooling system many (obvious) details started to become clear to me. Among them 1) No drain plug or cap in the radiator and 2) the reservoir cap and valve cover caps look almost identical. The owner (the mother of a friend of mine) is not a "car person". I spoke with him about my conclusion of how the sum could have filled with coolant, and he agreed ------------ that she thought she was checking the coolant level, saw none, and filled -------------- the valve cover instead of properly doing it !!! Why the cooling system was empty is a puzzle I can no solve. Sadly, I did not pressure test the system before removing the engine. The radiator is original to the car while the pump appears to have been replaced at some time. Hoses are clamps were all tight, so almost all the hoses, clamps, pump, t-stat, and radiator have been replaced.

So, no conclusions -- only conjecture. At this point the car is almost entirely back together. The engine has been spun up to achieve oil pressure, the endlessly illogical way this thing was "engineered" and assembled (read that as cobbled together) became more clear as I figured things out using the Vicky Brit parts catalog, Haynes manual, and copious head scratching, it is 95% done. I have to hand that weird bar (under the car and part of the e-brake system) to the bell housing, bolt the head pipe to the exhaust header, put the seats back in, hang the slave cylinder on the gearbox, and set the distributor timing. Not sure if the carb is working correctly (although I had it apart to make sure it is clean) and won't know until the timing is set and the engine fired up. Then the car will be test driven.

Of course, MORE minor issues have popped up. Horns were inop. I had to pop off the horn button and clean the contact area within it. Seems there was some schmutz underneath the little sprung plate. The aforementioned temp gauge error (inop?), and either the fuel gauge or sender all need attention. And as if one thinks it is then done (I thought it would be) I have been asked to repaint the steel wheels. Oh JOY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It will be nice to have gotten this thing back on the road and back to its owner. And -- they will have CLEAR instructions NOT to tell the next owner who I am !!!!!!!!!! One **** thing for sure ---- this 76 Midget makes my 70 GT6 look "modern". :thumbsup:

JPSmit said:

My opinion is that by accident or design the coolant was poured into the engine - as opposed to leaked. Small children playing mechanic or some such thing.

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You posted as I was responding. You apparently are correct -- owner/operator error. More commonly known as as "ah ****" move.

So, except for painting the wheels -- it's done. Great oil pressure, coolant staying where it should, engine is smooth as sick and surprisingly quite. Everything is attached as it should be ----- BUUUUT .. I have a couple of stragglers. Who knows what these are and where they go?

For every project of "N" parts, there is always N+1 (or N-1 available). :wink-new:

Boink said:

For every project of "N" parts, there is always N+1 (or N-1 available). :wink-new:

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True. However,after working on 3 Series BMWs (84-05), I have NEVER had "leftovers". The item on the left MIGHT be something to hand the exhaust from at the bellhousing. I remember the other, but not where it goes.