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Speedometer Drive Gear Issue w/ Smitty/Delaney Tx Conversion

Kaybee

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A problem occurred on the inaugural test drive after a full BJ8 restoration that included converting to the Smitty/Delaney Toyota W58 5-speed transmission. Everything was fine until the speedometer cable drive gear disengaged inside the Tx when shifting into reverse for the first time and did not reengage when returning to any forward gear. We've pulled the speedo cable and the right angle drive at the Tx end and everything appears normal, including the gear itself. Does anyone familiar with this transmission have experience with this issue or advice on how to go about troubleshooting it?

Thanks for reading this and for any help you can provide.

Ken in NC
 
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Kaybee

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I've been trying to research this myself. The W58 transmission was used in a variety of Toyota cars and trucks for several decades. This transmission has been retrofitted into all kinds of classics, even Lotus. Many online forums have discussed this retrofit and the proper speedo drive gear setup. Here's what I've come up with. Depending on the rear end ratio, the speedometer drive gear set (2) varies. The metal speedometer drive gear built into the output shaft has either 10 or 11 teeth. The plastic gear attached to the right angle drive for the speedometer cable has anywhere from 31 to 35 teeth depending on rear end ratio. I have no idea what vehicle my Tx came from or what its rear end ratio was. But if I was provided with a plastic gear meant for a 10-tooth drive that is actually 11-tooth (or vice versa), it could easily explain my problem of the speedometer drive gears disengaging. I will post any progress with the trouble shooting. Let's hope there is some.

If you are using this Tx or planning to, this thread is very informative about what gears to use for each rear end ratio and includes Toyota part numbers for all combinations:

https://www.celicasupra.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-10668.html

Ken in NC
 

Michael Oritt

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The W-series Toyota transmissions (W 54-59) were installed in many different applications over the years, from trucks to Celicas to Supras (both turbo and non-turbo). Apparently the W58 is the transmission of choice and as I recall there were even variations amongst the 58's depending upon the car, both in 5th gear ratios and case construction--supposedly those with cases having an aluminum/steel/aluminum sandwich being the strongest and most sought after though in point of fact any W transmission will handle the power our Healeys can make.

Though the term "Toyota 5 speed" seems to be used as a synonym for "W58" such is not the case and I think a lot of incorrect assumptions are made as to which W transmission one has in his car and ultimately what must be made to mate speedometer cab get--ultimately--an accurate speedometer reading.

The box in my car is, I believe, a W54 and I had a professional speedometer shop make up an entirely new drive cable with a conversion box in the middle--one and done!

Frankly the whole subject gives me a headache.
 
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Kaybee

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Thanks, Michael. I've had that same headache for a month and a half now.

I bought my Tx from Pete Delaney when I bought the conversion kit and am certain it is a W58, but you are right that there were many variants and I have no idea which it is. I will look into the speedometer shop option if all else fails.

Ken
 

steveg

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This lists ratios for different W transmissions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_W_transmission

You can google "circle divided into percentage" for artwork to make a disc for your output shaft. With the trans in top gear, rotate the first motion shaft one exact turn. If top is .85 (most W trannys), the disc will have moved 1.175 turns. If top is .78 (supra), the disc will have moved just over 1.28 turns.

Turns figured like this: Turns = 1 / Ratio

If you're doing this on the bench without the shift lever in place, remember the shift pattern is a mirror image, i.e. 5th is to the left and back. Strongly recommend doing this with the gear lever in place, as the internal plungers can get out of alignment.
 
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Kaybee

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Thanks, gentlemen.

Rick - I visited their website. It sounds like it would also drive the odometer, but it didn't say anything about that specifically or whether it would be accurate.

Steve - I discovered that website a while back and did get useful information from it.

Ken
 

Bob_Spidell

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Side Note: I was talking to the son of a family friend who was doing some machine work for me (mill out a bellhousing and adapter plate for uprated DWR gearbox bearing 'shims'). He mentioned his side business of making kits for transmission swaps. His opinion was that the Nissan CD009 6-speed gearbox is superior to Toyota's and that he makes adapter kits for them. He hasn't done any for Healeys, yet, but said he'd be interested in doing such a product. He has a website:

toyotav8.com

NFI, but this, of course, would make all 5-speed conversions obsolete :wink-new:
 

steveg

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Below link to a good discussion. The Nissan evidently will handle more horsepower and has a built-in bell housing. Wonder where the shift lever falls. Supra W58 good for only 300 hp. Tremac T56 can have very low numeric top gears.

https://www.suprastore.com/howmupocan6s.html

Tremac kit is also available for Healeys from Oz. Maybe Healey Factory.

CD009 evidently has a 1.000 5th and .794 6th - not as good as the .783 of the Supra W58

screenshot.1208.jpg
 

HealeyRick

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Thanks, gentlemen.

Rick - I visited their website. It sounds like it would also drive the odometer, but it didn't say anything about that specifically or whether it would be accurate.

Ken

It does drive the odometer and it's perfectly accurate, I checked it on a mobile speedo app on my phone. Only caveat, is your car must be converted to negative ground, it doesn't work on positive. I was a beta tester and got my unit for free. I'm in my third year on it.
 

Michael Oritt

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Rick--

The Classic Speed device would be a lot easier way to go than what I had to do to get a converter box--I had to take my car to a speedo shop and spend the better part of a day having him make up the new drives/converter box, etc. When I had it done it probably cost me about $300.00 but that was 15 years ago so it looks like the Classic Speed device would be cheaper. Plus, because I have gone to a slightly larger tire in the interim (175 Michelin XzX versus the 180 XAS I have now) I have introduced a couple of percentages of speedometer error (higher actual speed than indicated).

The miracles of modern science....
 
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Kaybee

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Thanks, Rick

The Classic Speed instructions recommend mounting the antenna on the dash top where it has a straight-up view through the windshield. If yours is there, how did you get the wires down behind the dash and out to wherever you mounted the main control unit?

Thanks,
Ken
 
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Kaybee

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UPDATE: After four or five failures with a variety of Toyota speedo drive gears, one has finally worked. Failures included 31/10, 30/10, 27/10, 35/11 and 31/11. I stated in an earlier post that the gears went from 31 to 35 teeth for 10 or 11 tooth output shaft gears. I encountered a 27, a 30 and a 36, so clearly there are more than I knew about, but some of those we tried were old and may no longer be available.

The gear that works is a 33/11. My research showed that a 35/11 or 31/10 were the best matches for the Healey's 3.9 rear end. As near as I can tell, the 33/11 should result in about a 3.4 MPH error at 60 MPH or about 5.7 percent. If it seems too far off down the road, I can always send the speedometer to Nisonger for recalibration.

I still don't have any idea what variant of the Toyota W-Series trans I have, so I am not in any way recommending this gear for somebody else's car. But if you are planning this Tx conversion, try very hard to make sure the speedo drive gears are a matched pair in the Tx you are considering buying.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Rick - I was one last gear try away from ordering the Classic Speed GPS unit. I may yet if this fails at some point.

Ken
 

RDKeysor

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All of this hurts my head, too. When I acquired my BN7 with a Smitty, the speedo cable promptly failed. The wiser heads in our Healey club said buy the right-angle drive, though some had trouble with those expensive devices. Instead, I bought a really long Healey cable from Moss, allowed a very generous curve where the cable bends to enter the tranny, and hand-fitted the cable to the gizmo that attaches to the cable end to drive the speedo. Actually, I did it twice because I didn't take care to have the speedo end attached and had to repeat the process. This system now has several thousand miles on it. I suspect my tranny came out of a truck, and I invested in a Brit-made 3.5 ring and pinion gear that has really reduced my road rpms. I have no idea how to make my speedo accurate, so I simply pulled off the mileage indicator, replaced it so it indicates 20 mph, and found that is roughly correct at about 50 mph. How do I know that, I have and old Garmin GPS mounted on the dash that functions perfectly. Might add that I will soon report on the pros and cons of a Chinese-made aluminum radiator sold by a U.S. firm. I am waiting for really hot weather down here in Florida to make sure I am getting the cooling improvement I hoped to achieve.
 

roscoe

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The plastic gear that is in the tail housing of the W series transmissions was the only part showing any wear in the used gearbox I bought. It was totally worn out and I put a new one in. It's about the easiest job you can do inside the gearbox. I have a Delaney 5 speed kit with a real W58 gearbox, Minitaur wheels and non-standard tires. I knew the speedometer would not likley be accurate, especially when I got rid of my 4.11 gears and put in a 3.54 gearset. I was correct.

All you need to do is pull the speedometer, put a piece of tape on the end of the speedometer cable and count the revolutions it makes when you push the car 52.8 feet, send that number with your speedometer to the instrument shop of your choice and they can install the correct gearing to make it read as close as possible to what it should.

I'd do this myself if I wasn't becoming more ham handed and if I had access to the parts. I think I'll send in my fuel gage which needs some attention while I'm at it. Waiting for the rainy season to do this. In the mean time the gps speedometer app on my phone works well but unfortunately doesn't have a fuel gage option.
 
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