• The Roadster Factory Recovery Fund - Friends, as you may have heard, The Roadster Factory, a respected British Car Parts business in PA, suffered a total loss in a fire on Christmas Day. Read about it, discuss or ask questions >> HERE. The Triumph Register of America is sponsoring a fund raiser to help TRF get back on their feet. If you can help, vist >> their GoFundMe page.
  • Hey there Guest!
    If you enjoy BCF and find our forum a useful resource, if you appreciate not having ads pop up all over the place and you want to ensure we can stay online - Please consider supporting with an "optional" low-cost annual subscription.
    **Upgrade Now**
    (PS: Subscribers don't see this UGLY banner)
Tips
Tips

TR2/3/3A Front end woes...

karls59tr

Obi Wan
Country flag
Offline
I recently went on a 400 mile trip and I noticed that on the highway at 60 there was considerable vibration on the steering wheel. When i got home I jacked up the car and was surprised to find very severe wear on the front tires.This would be on the inner half of the tread pattern... like a bad toe in problem. Newer tire on the passenger side was worn down to the internal threading!!:concern:
I know that over the years the trunnions and the outer tie rod ends were replaced. I had replaced the drag link ends with Delrin bushings as well and also the ball joints and idler arm. It appears that I did not replace the inner tie rod ends because on the passenger side inner end there was a great deal of movement(gripped the wheel at 3 and 9 o'clock and pushed in and out) not so much on the drivers side.
The steering box has a lot of play as you can move the steering wheel several inches side to side before you feel movement.
I have a recently rebuilt steering box that I am going to install this winter as well as replacing the the inner tie rod ends. Would the worn inner tie rod on the pass side have caused the extreme wear on the tire it's own or did the steering slop compound the problem? The outer tie rod ends seem OK so is it necessary to change all the tie rod ends or just the failed inner ones? Also ...if the wheel bearing nuts were not torqued correctly would this cause toe in as well?
Any advice most appreciated.
 

TR4nut

Yoda
Country flag
Offline
Karl

i think if if everything else was 'perfect' the sloppy steering would not have caused the tire wear. But it sounds like you have a good plan to replace the steering unit which I think is a good idea. Normally when I rebuild suspensions I replace most components but if you detect no play in the one you have I don't see a reason not to continue with them.

If the wheel bearings were not properly set you might see play in the hubs - I doubt that caused the tire wear but if there is a lot of play you should inspect the bearings and races carefully and change them out if they don't look perfect.
 

TomMull

Darth Vader
Silver
Country flag
Offline
The tire wear is almost certainly caused by poor wheel alignment and the alignment has to be way off to scrub ties that quickly. Randy is right about the steering box not being the culprit. But of course a worn box will certainly make the car difficult and dangerous to drive. You need to address all the problems you can see and then set the toe in to 0 to 1/8 inch as I remember. It would also to make some some accurate of the wheel camber also. I'd do this before you tear into the steering links since incorrect camber would indicate more suspension work necessary.
You can measure things yourself fairly easily. There are many guides on line. Here's one:
https://www.negative-camber.org/jam149/technical/alignment.html
Tom
 

CJD

Yoda
Country flag
Offline
In my experience uniform wear around the entire tire is entirely from incorrect toe. Worn parts cause uneven wear, like cupped spots. Wear in the steering gear will not cause significant tire wear. I would not expect a loose bearing to affect toe, but it could cause irregular wear .
 

Geo Hahn

Yoda
Country flag
Offline
...very severe wear on the front tires.This would be on the inner half of the tread pattern... like a bad toe in problem...

Specifically, way too much toe out could cause that. You may even be able to eyeball the problem by sighting along the edge of each side of the car to see if the front tires appear to be pointed out.

If that is not the issue, then prior accident damage may be an underlying cause.
 
OP
K

karls59tr

Obi Wan
Country flag
Offline
The tire wear is almost certainly caused by poor wheel alignment and the alignment has to be way off to scrub ties that quickly. Randy is right about the steering box not being the culprit. But of course a worn box will certainly make the car difficult and dangerous to drive. You need to address all the problems you can see and then set the toe in to 0 to 1/8 inch as I remember. It would also to make some some accurate of the wheel camber also. I'd do this before you tear into the steering links since incorrect camber would indicate more suspension work necessary.
You can measure things yourself fairly easily. There are many guides on line. Here's one:
https://www.negative-camber.org/jam149/technical/alignment.html
Tom

I think I read somewhere that the TR3 had 0 degree camber or that there was no way to adjust camber on the TR3? What is camber in basic terms? Thanks for your input.:encouragement:
 

TomMull

Darth Vader
Silver
Country flag
Offline
I think I read somewhere that the TR3 had 0 degree camber or that there was no way to adjust camber on the TR3? What is camber in basic terms? Thanks for your input.:encouragement:

Actually the TR3 manual lists 2 degrees positive. TR4 is less, probably because of the rack and pinion. There s no built in adjustment but worn bushings usually reduce the camber. Of course, another culprit is a bent vertical link or other accident damage.
https://www.tildentechnologies.com/downloads/TRsuspension.PDF
Tom
 

CJD

Yoda
Country flag
Offline
Camber is the tilt of the top of the wheel inward (negative) or outward (positive). It is not adjustable on the OEM TR 2/3. Castor is the tilting of the suspension pivot to the rear (positive). Negative castor is not used as it would be unstable. In general, castor and camber do not affect wear, unless you are using very wide tires with high camber. That does not include our TR’s with the skinny tires.

Toe in or out is the primary cause of rapid wear on an otherwise good suspension. Worn parts will also cause wear with irregular spots on the tire.

Geo...I’ve been eyeballing my toe for 30 years. I have not been to an alignment shop in all that time. It is as accurate as any laser rig in shops. My saying is, if I can eyeball a rifle and bulls eye a target at 100 yards, I can certainly sight a tire over 10 feet even more accurately!
 

mt10flyer

Senior Member
Country flag
Offline
This will not sit well with the purists out there, but I recently did the Moss steering rack conversion, along with replacing all consumable rubber, etc with polyurethane, new coil springs and added Koni shocks and I am so happy with the handling. I am sure the original steering box and all rubber parts is great, but it is older technology and some improvements have been made through the years. That said I do like to drive my TR3 as was meant and mine has never had a frame off or anything. If I had done a frame-off then I would want to make it as original as possible (and have another one to rat race in - that was the intent of the design me thinks).
 
Last edited:

groupdeville

Jedi Hopeful
Country flag
Offline
Looking at the suspension diagram in the Tilden link, it also appears that moving the road wheel centerline toward the centerline of the car (increased positive offset) would make the TR easier to steer (changing the scrub radius?). Anyone have experience playing with this factor?
 
Last edited:
OP
K

karls59tr

Obi Wan
Country flag
Offline
Looking at the suspension diagram in the Tilden link, it also appears that moving the road wheel centerline toward the centerline of the car (increased positive offset) would make the TR easier to steer (changing the scrub radius?). Anyone have experience playing with this factor?

Would this be done with a a wheel spacer?
 

CJD

Yoda
Country flag
Offline
Looking at the suspension diagram in the Tilden link, it also appears that moving the road wheel centerline toward the centerline of the car (increased positive offset) would make the TR easier to steer (changing the scrub radius?). Anyone have experience playing with this factor?

He's talking about moving the wheel inward, not outward. It would make steering a bit easier, but you would loose any self centering force on the front suspension. The car would tend to wander much more.

PS...Karl, this has nothing to do with your issue...It's one of those theoretical "what if" scenarios. Fix your worn out links and align your car and you will be golden.
 

groupdeville

Jedi Hopeful
Country flag
Offline
Using spacers would create "negative offset", which moves the centerline of the wheel out away from the suspension. What I'm wondering about is sometimes called "positive offset" which would require a different wheel than a normal TR3/TR4 disc wheel. IIRC, the offset on a standard TR3 wheel is something like +19mm, so moving the centerline of the wheel and tire closer to where the kingpin (or ball joint) inclination line hits the ground would require a wheel with greater positive offset (or "backspace").

In really old cars I think the goal was to have the kingpin inclination and the wheel centerline touch the ground at the same point, for easy steering and control..but that was the 1920s, and I'm curious if that approach would still be a valid path to lighten the steering effort on a TR3, or if doing so would create some other steering or handling instability that I'm unaware of. Setting the wheels too far in would, of course foul the bodywork and decrease the (already-narrow) wheel track - so the idea might be impractical for those reasons.
 

CJD

Yoda
Country flag
Offline
Assuming it was able to clear the tire on the suspension, if you have zero wheel offset with the king pin inclination line, then you will loose all the centering forces the TR2/3 has. There is no castor to center the wheels. So, steering would be easier/less effort, but if you turned the wheel and let go the car would continue to turn until you intervened to stop it. In fact, under heavy cornering the tire could deflect enough to get negative offset with the king pin inclination and actually cause the wheel to turn harder into the turn.

Maybe I am misunderstanding WHY you want the offset inward? If it is to reduce steering effort, then I believe that is why the TR2/3 are designed with positive camber...to reduce the scrub from the king pin to tire contact offset.

Again, sorry Frank. This whole line is way outfield of your topic.
 

bobhustead

Senior Member
Gold
Country flag
Offline
With rack and pinion replacement, you lose the trafficator/horn. Overhaul the front end in full and have your steering box rebuilt.
Bob
 

mt10flyer

Senior Member
Country flag
Offline
With rack and pinion replacement, you lose the trafficator/horn. Overhaul the front end in full and have your steering box rebuilt.
Bob

Trafficator. I never knew that's what it was called. This is true. You have to deal with losing the ability to have wires running up the steering column which means a couple of hidden switches some where. Again, not for the purists. It seems karls59tr want the purist approach so what CJD says. I would dismantle, replace all the consumables, replace the links, rebuild the steering box and be happy. It will handle just fine and dandy!
 

CJD

Yoda
Country flag
Offline
No sweat. Usually Randall jumps into these suspension threads and beats me up over my terminology. We haven't seen him for a few days, so I suspect he's having trouble logging in again?!?
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
G MGB '71 MGB Front End Rebuild MG 2
X Front End Alignment Austin Healey 14
craigshealey3000 Front End Shake Austin Healey 31
B Bent frame rails near BE front end Spridgets 2
B 2013 Nissan Frontier front end mystery Other Cars 7
K TR2/3/3A Front wheel bearing adjust and end float?? Triumph 10
Michael Oritt Lube points on BN/BT7 front end Austin Healey 4
K TR2/3/3A Advise on previously botched front end lower fulcrum support bracket. Triumph 5
AUSMHLY BJ8 Front End Squeak Austin Healey 25
AUSMHLY 64 front end too high Austin Healey 14
thibault BJ8 plus 55mph Front end shaking Austin Healey 100
vette Effects of Lowering the Front End Austin Healey 21
G Front end Alignment - Total Toe vs. Individual Toe Austin Healey 3
R Front wheel bearing - end float Austin Healey 40
T For Sale For Sale: Bugeye Front End Spridgets Classified 0
S Wedge tr8 front end Triumph 0
B TR2/3/3A Front end alignment Triumph 23
Jim_Gruber Bugsy IV Front End Rebuild Spridgets 5
mcmillal TR4/4A Front End Vibration Triumph 9
K TR2/3/3A Front end Question.... Triumph 4
M front end alignment Austin Healey 12
T TR4/4A Front end alignment specs for lowered car Triumph 2
Joe Reed MGB Rattle under front end? MG 8
J MGB Project car done; front end clunk noise while braking MG 4
S TR2/3/3A Front end alignment and tire wear Triumph 9
aeronca65t Minor front end work Spridgets 12
RAC68 Calculating Front Hub End-Play Austin Healey 32
aeronca65t front end maintenance Spridgets 5
bugedd Front end rebuilt help Spridgets 6
BlueMax Front End Completed Spridgets 23
bugedd About to rebuild front end...any tips? Spridgets 5
K TR2/3/3A Using Moss front end alignment gauge? Triumph 6
K TR2/3/3A Front end reassembly: trunnion spindles and wishbone bushes??? Triumph 10
BillyB62 TR2/3/3A TR3 front end shake Triumph 24
BillyB62 TR2/3/3A TR3 Ball joints & front end Triumph 5
D XJ6 series III front end rattle Jaguar 5
Tr3aguy Front end rebuild questions>? Triumph 6
S Finally got my front end back together Triumph 5
O TR2/3/3A TR3 front End Alignment Triumph 8
RickB Box Spridget fiberglass front end - front mounting Spridgets 5
K TR6 TR6 front end Triumph 2
Burrell22 TR4/4A Tr4 front end help. Triumph 10
B Bugeye front end Spridgets 0
H Should I drop the front end down a little? Austin Healey 25
M Advice on doing a front end rebuild via kit? Spridgets 4
hondo402000 TR6 TR6 front end alignment and wheel balancing Triumph 4
S TR2/3/3A tr3 front end alignment Triumph 9
MY66AH Front end question Spridgets 9
regularman Has anyone here put a bugeye front end on a square Spridgets 2
bugedd Lowering front end Spridgets 8

Similar threads

Top