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Thread: 5 Speed Issue

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    5 Speed Issue

    I finally found some free time to really test the recently installed "Smitty" 5 speed. New problem: The gear box jumps out of 5th gear while traveling at speed (45-50 mph). I can hold it in gear by pushing on the shifter, but as soon as I let up on applying pressure to the shifter, it pops to neutral.

    When sitting at idle with the clutch depressed, I can shift in to 5th and let the clutch out slowly, and it seems to stay in gear. However, because it is 5th gear, it stalls out when I start to move.

    The gearbox tunnel is still off, so it is not interference from the tunnel.

    Any thoughts? I do not want to think about pulling out the W58 gearbox.

    P.S. Fingers crossed for the Bonita Springs home.
    John Kuzman
    West Chester, OH & Bonita Springs, FL
    1959 Bugeye, 1275 w/5 speed; 1960 Bugeye Project
    1963 BJ7; 1969 Corvette; 1972 Spitfire; 1980 El Camino

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    Jedi Trainee Joe Schlosser's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    synchro worn
    Joe Schlosser
    SCCA National License, Retired
    60 Bugeye, since 1966
    SCCA FP, sold but not forgotten

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    Jedi Warrior red57's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    One thing to check. These W58 boxes have a nylon/plastic bushing on the ball at the bottom end of the shift lever and these can wear - if worn badly the lever doesn't put it fully into gear. This is usually noticed by a sloppy feeling shifter but it is simple enough to check. Otherwise, it's internal as Joe said...
    Dave

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    Darth Vader Michael Oritt's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    John--

    As Dave and Red57 say it is either a worn lever/bushing or a worn synchro hub or sleeve. Both can be caused by one's driving with his hand on the shift stick and exerting pressure against the part.

    Assuming that the transmission was professionally rebuilt prior to your installation and you have not put a lot of mileage on it I would suggest taking this up with the rebuilder.

    Best--Michael Oritt
    1954 Austin-Healey 100 Le Mans
    1958 Elva Courier (FOR SALE)
    1959 Elva MK IV Sports Racer
    1961 Ginetta G4

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Thanks for all of the replies. This is a brand new "Smitty" 5 speed kit, so the shifter has a new nylon bushing. It has only been driven maybe 25 miles, so it is not a situation where someone has been driving with their hand on the shifter.

    I thought about the synchros, but the W58 was rebuilt by a reputable shop just prior to installation. Also, I found this write up about synchros:

    Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation out there about 5th gear pop-out (or any gear for that matter) being caused by worn syncros or some other problem with the syncros. The truth is, the synchronizer rings have absolutely nothing to do with a transmission staying in a gear or popping out of a gear. Synchronizers only function is to "spin up" the gears as the engagement hub approaches the gear. For a detailed look check out HowStuffWorks: Manual Transmissions. They have an excellent section about manual transmissions and synchronizers.

    I have reached out to the rebuilder by both telephone and email several times. As usual in this day and age, no response. The shop is too far away to just drop in.
    John Kuzman
    West Chester, OH & Bonita Springs, FL
    1959 Bugeye, 1275 w/5 speed; 1960 Bugeye Project
    1963 BJ7; 1969 Corvette; 1972 Spitfire; 1980 El Camino

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    John, do not confuse "synchronizer ring" with "synchronizer assembly". The ring is just one piece of the puzzle. There is a fixed hub with 3 "keys" on which the sliding portion of the assembly rides. The three keys help lock the sliding hub in place after the gear is engaged. There are potential issues here that can cause the sliding hub to not fully engage or not be held in the engaged position.

    I will add a few other potential problem spots to what has been listed already.

    1.)Inside the shift tower there is a plastic/rubber seat for the large pivot ball of the shift lever. They are known to wear out and cause gear selection issues. Typically, they are listed as only being available with the entire shift tower. If yours is worn, or if you would just like to replace it, get the color of the seat and I can get you a part number.

    2.) There are 3 sets of balls and springs set into the side of the trans center plate. They are located under cap screws. Their purpose is to locate the shift rods in the correct position to hold the sliding gear selector(synchronizer) hub in place. Although they may seem interchangeable, the lower two sets use the same ball, spring and cap screws while the upper ball, spring and screw have different part numbers. It might be a good idea to have trans shop confirm that the right parts are in the correct location. The lower position is for the 5th gear shift rod.

    3.) Shift fork bent or worn on the two "fingers" that engage the synchro sliding hub.

    4.) Incorrect thickness snap ring aft of the 5th gear and bearing on counter shaft. Too thin, and the gear, spacer and bearing can potentially move rearward, away from the synchro assembly's sliding hub.

    Hope it turns out to be something simple.

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    Obi Wan Patrick67BJ8's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    I had the exact same problem.

    Sounds like like the 5th gear synchronizer assembly but there's a few things you can do first without having to pull the transmission.

    1. Check the nylon bushing at the end of the shift lever.

    2. Below the lever/under the nylon bushing is a round ring. The shift ball sits in this. Be careful removing it if it looks like it has deteriorated. Check to see if it's deteriorated. Replace it if it is but when if it is, it can cause the shifter to slide out of some of the other gears too. Do not buy a whole shifter tower assembly at $175.00 because you only need the ring. PM me if it's worn out and I'll send you the part number. Toyota parts did t know it was available until I told them. About $30.00.

    3. On the left hand side of the trans is some screws that you will need a T-40 wrench to remove. The one second from the bottom of the trans is for 5th gear. It's the detent ball/pin with a spring. I first tried stretching the spring about 3/8" to a length of 1 1/8" but that wasn't the problem. Heck both spring and pin. Trans went back to the rebuilder and I believe they did some fine tuning with shims, etc, to get it correct.

    In the beginning, I had the 5th gear synchronizer assembly replaced but it still was sliding out of 5th gear.
    Patrick
    '67 Metallic Golden Beige/Red
    Owned since '72

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    Obi Wan Patrick67BJ8's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick67BJ8 View Post
    I had the exact same problem.

    Sounds like like the 5th gear synchronizer assembly but there's a few things you can do first without having to pull the transmission.

    1. Check the nylon bushing at the end of the shift lever.

    2. Below the lever/under the nylon bushing is a round ring. The shift ball sits in this. Be careful removing it if it looks like it has deteriorated. Check to see if it's deteriorated. Replace it if it is but when if it is, it can cause the shifter to slide out of some of the other gears too. Do not buy a whole shifter tower assembly at $175.00 because you only need the ring. PM me if it's worn out and I'll send you the part number. Toyota parts did t know it was available until I told them. About $30.00.

    3. On the left hand side of the trans is some screws that you will need a T-40 wrench to remove. The one second from the bottom of the trans is for 5th gear. It's the detent ball/pin with a spring. I first tried stretching the spring about 3/8" to a length of 1 1/8" but that wasn't the problem. Heck both spring and pin. Trans went back to the rebuilder and I believe they did some fine tuning with shims, etc, to get it correct.

    In the beginning, I had the 5th gear synchronizer assembly replaced but it still was sliding out of 5th gear.
    There are no part numbers on the transmission but the shop I used stocked everything so all they had to do was match up the part. Very fast turn around.
    Patrick
    '67 Metallic Golden Beige/Red
    Owned since '72

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick67BJ8 View Post

    2. Below the lever/under the nylon bushing is a round ring. The shift ball sits in this. Be careful removing it if it looks like it has deteriorated. Check to see if it's deteriorated. Replace it if it is but when if it is, it can cause the shifter to slide out of some of the other gears too. Do not buy a whole shifter tower assembly at $175.00 because you only need the ring. PM me if it's worn out and I'll send you the part number. Toyota parts did t know it was available until I told them. About $30.00.
    I work as a tech at a Toyota dealer. The good parts guys know they are available separately. There is more than 1 available and they differ by color.

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Well, whatever the problem, it looks like the gearbox has to come out. I am so dejected right now that I may just push it to the back of the shop and deal with it next spring. The installation was an absolute bear as a one person operation.

    I am not going to let the rebuilder slide on this disaster. He may be 700 miles away, but the proper Court allows electronic filing. No more phone calls, texts or emails.

    Thanks for all of the responses.
    John Kuzman
    West Chester, OH & Bonita Springs, FL
    1959 Bugeye, 1275 w/5 speed; 1960 Bugeye Project
    1963 BJ7; 1969 Corvette; 1972 Spitfire; 1980 El Camino

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    Senior Member HealeyBN7's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    I just replaced mine last weekend. Driving along PCH I found that I could not engage 5th. Here is what the bushing looked like. Completely crumbled. It took 5 minutes to replace, and most of that time was vacuuming the old bushing out. Our local Autozone had them on the shelf.

    1-IMG_1448.JPG

    Here is a link to the Dorman part on Summit... https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...rese1-_-dorman

    Dean
    59 Peerless GT; 60 Healey BN7; 61 Warwick GT; 70 Lotus Europa; 88 M5; 95 RRC

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Not specific to Healeys or 5-speeds, but in shops the very first thing we checked was boot....if the conversion has the shifter in a position not normal for the hole, pressure on the shifter from the boot can and does that. I would try it with the boot removed, and make sure the shift lever is not contacting the edge of the hole BEFORE you pull the transmission.And then check to make sure your supplier is not in Houston or South Florida.

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by HealeyBN7 View Post
    I just replaced mine last weekend. Driving along PCH I found that I could not engage 5th. Here is what the bushing looked like. Completely crumbled. It took 5 minutes to replace, and most of that time was vacuuming the old bushing out. Our local Autozone had them on the shelf.

    1-IMG_1448.JPG

    Here is a link to the Dorman part on Summit... https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...rese1-_-dorman

    Dean
    That's a great price for both pieces. Also, very easy to check if the old one is worn out.
    Patrick
    '67 Metallic Golden Beige/Red
    Owned since '72

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    Darth Vader Michael Oritt's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    John--

    I know we generally don't call out vendors by name but Google Maps tells me it is 726 miles from West Chester, OH to Oxford, CT.

    Is that a coincidence?

    Best--Michael Oritt
    1954 Austin-Healey 100 Le Mans
    1958 Elva Courier (FOR SALE)
    1959 Elva MK IV Sports Racer
    1961 Ginetta G4

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Michael -

    Excellent deductive reasoning.
    John Kuzman
    West Chester, OH & Bonita Springs, FL
    1959 Bugeye, 1275 w/5 speed; 1960 Bugeye Project
    1963 BJ7; 1969 Corvette; 1972 Spitfire; 1980 El Camino

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    John, before you assume that the trans has to come out, the shift tower seat and shift rod detent balls and springs are easily serviceable with trans installed. I would highly recommend at least looking at them before giving up.


    Quote Originally Posted by HealeyBN7 View Post
    I just replaced mine last weekend. Driving along PCH I found that I could not engage 5th. Here is what the bushing looked like. Completely crumbled. It took 5 minutes to replace, and most of that time was vacuuming the old bushing out. Our local Autozone had them on the shelf.

    1-IMG_1448.JPG

    Here is a link to the Dorman part on Summit... https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...rese1-_-dorman

    Dean
    Good to know they're available in the aftermarket. Dorman has always been good at supplying hard-to-get or common-to-fail items. The seat shown is the "green" one and my parts guys tell me it is the most common. The Toyota # for that is 33505-35020.

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Craig -

    I hope to find some time early next week, and I will remove the shifter and examine the shifter seat and nylon bushing. The shift cover and shifter came new with the kit I purchased in June, so I would think that the shift seat is new, but I will verify.

    On the shift rod detent balls, will bad things happen, i.e. springs, pins and ball bearings fly out upon removal of the cap screw? Do I remove the cap screw in gear or neutral? If their purpose is to locate the shift rods in the correct position to hold the sliding gear selector(synchronizer) hub in place, will I risk losing shift rod alignment and sychro hub position when I remove the cap screw?

    Once again, thank you for your guidance.
    John Kuzman
    West Chester, OH & Bonita Springs, FL
    1959 Bugeye, 1275 w/5 speed; 1960 Bugeye Project
    1963 BJ7; 1969 Corvette; 1972 Spitfire; 1980 El Camino

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    Senior Member HealeyBN7's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Right. Dorman provides two bushings in the package. The green bushing is the sleeve for the ball joint, and the white smaller bushing fits onto the end of the shifter and into the shift fork components farther inside the transmission. I read that some folks had difficulty getting the white bushing to fit. I had this same issue. It may be that the ID of the bushing is too small for the shifter and that forces the OD to be too large for the fork, or it is just too large to begin with. I suppose it is possible to machine it to fit better, but at that point you might as well start with a new piece of delrin. In any case, the green bushing works fine, and it is unlikely your white bushing is bad, so don't go about throwing away the old white bushing before you test fit the new one.

    Or maybe my advice should be...toss the Dorman white bushing in the trash and pretend that you only got the green on that you ordered.

    Dean
    59 Peerless GT; 60 Healey BN7; 61 Warwick GT; 70 Lotus Europa; 88 M5; 95 RRC

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kuzman View Post
    Craig -



    On the shift rod detent balls, will bad things happen, i.e. springs, pins and ball bearings fly out upon removal of the cap screw? Do I remove the cap screw in gear or neutral? If their purpose is to locate the shift rods in the correct position to hold the sliding gear selector(synchronizer) hub in place, will I risk losing shift rod alignment and sychro hub position when I remove the cap screw?

    Once again, thank you for your guidance.
    You can do this in any gear position you want, although neutral is simplest, especially if you have the shifter out. Removal of these items will not affect any components inside the gearbox.

    Under each of the three cap screws you will first find a spring. After removing the spring, you will probably need a small magnet to remove the ball. Their entire purpose is to create a little extra pressure on the shift rod when it is in gear or in neutral. It does this by pushing the ball into an appropriately located notch on the rod. My main concern here is that, since all 3 sets don't show the same part #, that perhaps the wrong combo was used in the bottom(5th gear) location. We have a W58 "training" unit at work. I will see if I can get some pics to make this easier to understand.

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    Re: 5 Speed Issue

    Thanks Craig. Pictures would certainly help.
    John Kuzman
    West Chester, OH & Bonita Springs, FL
    1959 Bugeye, 1275 w/5 speed; 1960 Bugeye Project
    1963 BJ7; 1969 Corvette; 1972 Spitfire; 1980 El Camino

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