TR2/3/3A wooodruff keys... how to remove

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Dr_Mike

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• Sep 12, 2016

• #1

I have just about rebuilt this engine, but I have to remove the keys from the Crankshaft in order to put in new shims. I have no idea how to do it, but they do not tap out easily ( or at all ) with a chisel.
(The timing sprockets were out of alignment by 15 thou and the old timing chain tensioner and pin were destroyed, so it really does seem a good idea to line them up better.)
I have sprayed with Liquid Wrench and left to it soak, but this is quite a challenge Any and all suggestions will be welcome!

 

Geo Hahn

Yoda

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• Sep 12, 2016

• #2

Have you try hitting the flat face at one end? That usually works for me - forcing that end down makes the opposite end pop up.

 

CJD

Yoda

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• Sep 12, 2016

• #3

If they are in that tightly, I'd leave them and notch the spacers to fit over them. The path of least resistance! Using a combination of punches and chisels I have always been able to remove keys, but often you need a new key when you're done.

 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P

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• Sep 12, 2016

• #4

If that doesn't do it, try grabbing one end with a pair of big diagonal cutters and levering upwards.

In extreme cases, you may need to cut into the body of the key with a Dremel and cutoff blade. Don't go too deep, but a little nick into the crank won't hurt anything. Obviously replace the key with a new one.

 

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DavidApp

Yoda

Gold

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• Sep 13, 2016

• #5

Flat punch on the end closest to the bearing, if that does not work a large sharp pair of side cutters to lever it out. It will need cleaning up or replacing if it is really tight as you will damage it getting it out.

David

 

S

sp53

Yoda

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• Sep 13, 2016

• #6

I have taken a small wood chisel and ground the side down until it matches the width of the key then drove that into the grove. Sometimes grinding the key flat and sometimes drilling the key in half at the center after I have ground it flat, but again that is after I tried what the others suggested above.

 

poolboy

Yoda

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• Sep 13, 2016

• #7

I use Geo Hahn's seesaw technique.

 

2

2liter4cyl

Senior Member

Bronze

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• Sep 13, 2016

• #8

The chain tensioner pin is broken? Be aware that although the pin has threads and flats, it is NOT that easy to replace. When made, the pin was screwed in and peened over on the back side of the engine mounting plate. You must work from the back side to get the old out and the new screwed in and peened. After messing up the plate, I had to go to an old engine for a plate. Since that the other pin looked good with little wear, I switched the pin and plate complete.

Le TR3A, 1960

 

OP

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Dr_Mike

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• Sep 13, 2016

• #9

Yes... I went for a "new" plate as suggested, though I think the old one could be salvaged with a new pin.
Have failed dismally to remove keys using the first there ideaS, SO] I AM ONTO #4 WHICH IS TO FILLET THE KEY WITH A DREMEL CUTOF, WHICH I JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE FROM A PREVIOUS HOBBY ( MODEL RAILROADS SINCE yOU ASK.) THaNK YOU ALL For SUGGESTIONS SO FAR.
THE FIRST KEY IS TOO MANGLED TO LEAVE. I WILL THINK ABOUT TRIMMING THE SHIMS TO GO OVER THE SECOND

Opps soory about the caps and getting the double o and double p reversed.

 

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DavidApp

Yoda

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• Sep 14, 2016

• #10

I have used this type of cutters to remove very stubborn keys.

 

CJD

Yoda

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• Sep 14, 2016

• #11

It sounds like maybe the last mechanic used a hardening type sealant on the shaft/keys. Heat softens most sealants, so perhaps using a paint stripper gun to heat the shaft a bit may help when you get back to tapping?!?

 

OP

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Dr_Mike

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• Sep 15, 2016

• #12

these are tough
moved the rear one with modified chisel until the tip broke off
front is immobile . as you can see, if I get the photo uploaded, I have cut into it but still no daylight at the edge.
might have to get a home visit as I cannot see carting it off to a shop at this point

 

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DavidApp

Yoda

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• Sep 15, 2016

• #13

Hello Mike

Looks as though the front key needs some desperate measures.
I hesitate to suggest it but you may be able to drill a 3mm hole in the center of the key to weaken it. The key cutout is 5.4mm deep at the center of its arc. I have never had to do this but it works with bolts that won't move.

On the rear key as the chisel has not worked have you tried gripping the key with large SHARP side cutters then raising the handles so that the tips of the cutters lever the key out of the slot?
Another tool that can be used to grip keys. It is great for getting a real tight hold on nuts and shafts with out marring them.

David

 

CJD

Yoda

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• Sep 15, 2016

• #14

Doc, I'm rarely at a loss for ideas...but I'm not sure where to go from where you are. The front key has nothing left to work with, and the rear is not far behind. All I can add at this point is to use great caution with the crank slots. If they get buggared there is no fix, meaning the need for a new crank.

 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P

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• Sep 15, 2016

• #15

Hard to say for sure, but it looks to me like you didn't go deep and wide enough with the Dremel. Ideally, you want just a paper-thin section left between the cut and the crank, all along the curve of the key. From there, it should be easy to use a small chisel to collapse the key sideways, even if it was glued in with Loctite.

In operation, all of the force is on the sides of the key & slot. A thin groove along the bottom (if you cut too deep with the Dremel) won't hurt anything at all as long as you don't touch the sides.

I don't see how it would happen (TIA perhaps?) but if you do bugger the slot beyond use; any crankshaft repair shop should be able to weld it up and recut the slot for you. Out there on the nose, there won't be any concern about the heat weakening the crank. Of course, that still involves pulling the engine and so on, but it can be done.

 

B

bobhustead

Senior Member

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• Sep 15, 2016

• #16

I think this is still do-able. A full thickness and full length cut along the front to back centerline of the key with a Dremel cutoff wheel will get this by effectively narrowing the key. It will then fall out. As Randall says, scoring the crank the width of the cutoff wheel by cutting too deep is not going to hurt the crank.

Bob

 

OP

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Dr_Mike

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• Sep 17, 2016

• #17

still very unmoved, even though I have got an opening at other front of the second key I cannot persuade it out. so yes, they may both be glued in. I cannot see any of the edges of the front key, and worry about cutting into the shaft.Hoe much further can I cut?
I shall try heat tomorrow and maybe a few incantations. 2 photos:

 

Last edited: Sep 17, 2016

OP

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Dr_Mike

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• Sep 17, 2016

• #18

try photos again! having spent (another) sleepless night, I am left serriedly wondering
:1/ Did PO weld the keys in as he welded in the liners to the block ( not very well). 2/ whether I should quit altogether> Cossting a lot of money which is running out.
heat should not budge Loctitye which PO had used on the Dynamo nut, for which I also had to seek help!

 

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Last edited: Sep 17, 2016

CJD

Yoda

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• Sep 17, 2016

• #19

Doc, I really feel for you. I have never seen a key in as tight as the front, even after removing that much metal. It does appear to be much more than simple locktite, although I don't know how it could be welded, unless the PO hit it with a spot welder. I don't put anything past the realm of PO's.

A decently equipped machine shop could cut the keys out easily, but the crank will have to be removed to do that. Also, if you damage the crank, I do have another you are welcome to for shipping...so the logical course at this point is to keep going, getting more aggressive until either they come out, or the crank gets damaged.

On the front key, it looks like you can use a punch to tap the sides inward, relieving some its grip in the crank. It also looks like there is enough of the side of the key left to grab with a small set of vice grips, and then tap on the pliers in the upward direction. After that, my only thought is more careful grinding until the key is paper thin on all sides, and then use a gasket scraper to remove it.

I wish you luck...like I said, worst case I've got a crank for you if the job goes awry.

 

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DavidApp

Yoda

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• Sep 17, 2016

• #20

Hello Dr. Mike

I think you would see evidence of welding if that is what they had done. A big press to force it in maybe.

So long as you stay away from the sides of the key way you should be ok.

As you can see from the photo the key is almost the same diameter as the Dremel cutting wheel so you could cut all the way to the bottom of the key with out damaging the shaft. At that point the key should collapse if you hit it on the sides.

Good luck


David