TR2/3/3A Help! What have I bought?

Hello and thank you for accepting me on the forum. I'm a Brit, living and working in the Middle East but with a fondness for interesting machinery. Having just sold my Lancia Flavia, I seem to have bought unseen from South Africa, what was advertised as a 1959 TR3. All well and good, but I'm having doubts as I look into it. No door handles, drum brakes up front, a TR2 nose and badge, that the seller tells me was apparently added later, cable bonnt release, no separate indicators and an Engine number of TS7513E, which with minimal research makes me think it's a TR2 unit? No commission number as the plate is missing, but a plate on the firewall saying TR7 (!).
I've attached a few pics and would really welcome some insight from the knowledgeable people out there. Yes, I know it's got no inner wings, the electrics look scary and the colour is more 1975 than 1955, but I can deal with that for now!
I'd be really grateful to anyone able to shed a bit more light on the thing!

Thanks

I can't add much to what you have already noted except to say that the intake and carburetors appear to be later than the engine number would indicate. Of course, a change of cylinder head with manifolds would nut be unusual, particularly on a car without inner wings. (The car looks pretty good otherwise).
Tom

The fourth photo (rear of car) won't open for me, so I can't see those details. The front of car certainly has the TR2 look.

And the doors are "short" (the sill is visible), so I think not a TR2. What's the history of the car?

Tom M.

NutmegCT said:

The fourth photo (rear of car) won't open for me, so I can't see those details. The front of car certainly has the TR2 look.

And the doors are "short" (the sill is visible), so I think not a TR2. What's the history of the car?

Tom M.

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Still could be a TR2, as there were both long (1954) and short (1955) door models. The engine number, if original to the car, places it as a '55 TR2. This is according to Bill Piggott's Original Triumph TR2/3/3A.



Mickey

Thanks Mickey. Didn't remember about the long/short doors on the TR2.

The seller said it's a 1959 TR3? Maybe it is - but the front end came from a TR2?

TM

Thank you all for the responses. The dealer was told that the front was tr2, not the 3, which might explain the cable release for the bonnet. I can kind of buy that, especially if it's been in a shunt at some time. I just find it curious that the thing has drums all round, on top of the door handles etc. Am I right in assuming the chains on the inside are exclusive tr2 or were similar arrangements found on the later models?

You think h6 rather than h4 Tom?

I know less about right hand drive cars than left, but I think the wiper motor bracket is consistent with the M/C and drum brakes of 'older' TRs. Someone has made significant changes from original in the wiring as well as the inner fenders -what is holding the outer fenders and apron onto the rest of the car? I can imagine driving in the rain results in 'flooding' regardless of the air filters. -But isn't that the VIN plate on the non-steering side of the firewall?

Just so you know, almost all Lucas devices have a date code stamped onto them. It's 2) 2 digit numbers for week (of the year) and year produced. So, if you were looking at an original coil, you might find 10-55. The steering box cover plate has a stamp as well as all the dash switches, the generator etc. Some are covered in layers of paint under layers of grease, but they may shed light on where the parts came from.

Nice looking car. I hope you enjoy it.

Thats a 2, almost for sure, or atleast it started life as a 2. Carbs are early tr3, the inner wheel arches have been removed i guess to help cooling. The grill and front apron setup is correct for a 2. The door configuration is correct for the engine number you supplied. Take a picture of the driver side of the engine and I can tell you more. The cable release bonnet is a mod, its not the original tr2 design, either way you should not have a cable release system. how many holes are in the rear lip of your bonnet? If the rear edge of the sheet metal bent over or just cut straight? Do you have four tail lights or two?

Damage said:

Thank you all for the responses. The dealer was told that the front was tr2, not the 3, which might explain the cable release for the bonnet. I can kind of buy that, especially if it's been in a shunt at some time. I just find it curious that the thing has drums all round, on top of the door handles etc. Am I right in assuming the chains on the inside are exclusive tr2 or were similar arrangements found on the later models?

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There wasn't a cable release for the bonnet; only the Dzus fasteners at the leading edge, opened with a t-handle key. And the presence of drum brakes also defines it as a TR2; disk brakes were introduced with the TR3 model in '56. Cable door actuators were present on TR2's and TR3's. Pretty sure yours is a '55 TR2.

TexasKnucklehead said:

But isn't that the VIN plate on the non-steering side of the firewall?

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Appears to be, but looks like it's from a later model, as it's smaller than the TR2/early TR3 plate.

I wish I could open the last pic...but aside from that, it does appear to be a TR3 that has been outfitted with many, many, TR2 parts. The engine number says TR2...but the manifold and carbs say TR3. Here's what I see:

Dash, front scuttle are TR3. Since those are harder to replace, I would give gravity to those items for year and model.

The doors, engine block, apron, bonnet release are all TR2. I can't make out the glove pockets in the door trim to make out which year the door panels favor. Drum front brakes were TR2 or early TR3.

Aside from the obvious, that only die-hard Triumph fans would know, it's still a pretty car!

Lets take a look at details, that can't be changed to easily:

If the engine came with the car, the VIN of the car should be TS7xxx, lower than the engine number -> built in June/ July 1955
The door latches correspond to a "pre-door-handle"-car, meaning TR2 or TR3
The "long" doors were introduced Oct 1954 (TS4002) -> So this car is older
Front drum brakes were discontinued Sept 1956 (TS13046) -> So this car is younger
These are items that were rarely changed.

The carbs are H6 (introduced with TS8997E) is younger, so they were probably changed later (not uncommon, my '58 TR3a came with original engine block but late TR4A-head including Stromberg carbs on the late manifold)

Do you have rear flashers/ indicators as separate round lamps inside of the taillights or is the flasher part of the taillight?
This could date your rear half of the body: Separate flashers - TR3A - were introduced Sept 1957
The area behind the rear seats seems to be prior to the change in Oct. 1959

So my guess: At least the front half of the body and the engine could be originally TR2 (mid 1955)
The date the rear we would need a clear picture from behind (taillights)

Regards, Johannes

Damage said:

You think h6 rather than h4 Tom?

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Yes, I think all the H4s went on the manifold with two studs not 4. Manifolds were different too of course. The H6s came with the introduction of the TR3.
Tom

Am I missing something? or are the inner wheel wells missing???

tinman58 said:

Am I missing something? or are the inner wheel wells missing???

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That's the elephant in the room. The dealer apparently claimed that the front was changed. You can't do that without changing the inner wings so my guess is that they were simply eliminated instead.
Tom

So - the question is:

How does it run?

Damage said:

...I seem to have bought unseen from South Africa...

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I must try that one out on my wife: "Honey, I seem to have bought a...".

And I am with the consensus here - mostly a TR2 and some TR3. Looks like a car you will enjoy.

TexasKnucklehead said:

... But isn't that the VIN plate on the non-steering side of the firewall?...

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I think he said the firewall plate identifies it as a TR7!

Damage said:

Thank you all for the responses. The dealer was told that the front was tr2, not the 3, which might explain the cable release for the bonnet. I can kind of buy that, especially if it's been in a shunt at some time. I just find it curious that the thing has drums all round, on top of the door handles etc. Am I right in assuming the chains on the inside are exclusive tr2 or were similar arrangements found on the later models?

Click to expand...

Early TR3 also had front drum brakes, the change to front discs didn't come until September 1956 (TS13046 according to Piggott) although TR3 production actually started in late 55. The chains are a substitute for the early inner door handles, which were leather (kind of like heavy boot laces) covered in interior trim color. Those were also continued into the TR3, later than the change to front disc brakes. The wiper motor changed in July 56 (TS12567 again according to Piggott).

I can't really see clearly, but I think that might be a "low port" head, which would also be consistent with early TR3. The "high port" head was phased in during 1956 (again BP). Those are H6 carbs, again TR3. Not very many low port manifolds for H6 around, so that's an unusual piece (if I'm right).

yeah...I remember my Uncle's TR2....with the Skate Key to open the bonnet. In 1957 or 1958, that was amazing to see.