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TR4/4A Oh crud - coolant in the oil

tdskip

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Was: Oh crud - coolant in the oil, now Blown Head Gasket

Hi guys - hope everyone is doing well.

Apparently the TR Gods are not pleased I sold all the Triumphs as my "keeper" TR4a is apparently quite unwell.

Here is what happened - while she has always run a but warm we determined that was most likely the gauge. Put around 200 miles on her from a new rebuild without issue. Yesterday I noticed the temp was higher than usual and she was barfing coolant into over overflow tank. Odd, but she was running OK so I topped off the coolant and parked her. Today I wanted to make sure that I didn't have some sort of air pocket in the cooling system so I drove her around the neighborhood for about 5 minutes to get the thermostat open and she started barfing fluid again. Carefully removed the radiator cap and confirmed the water pump was moving water, confirmed the top and bottom hoses had flow. That all checked out, but I was low on coolant again. Oh no - I better check the oil and yep, coolant in the oil. Apparently quite a bit. I need to drain it all tonight once I have proper containers for it but, to put it mildly, ugh.

She didn't run like that long, but obviously not helpful for the lubrication system.

Assuming head gasket has gone? I never got to 500 miles to re-torque the head so I wasn't worried about it. Any words of comfort to pass along? Feel free to get make stuff up as I am pretty gutted right now...
 
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tinman58

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I feel your PAIN!!!
 

TR3driver

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IMO the aluminum plug under the rocker cover is a more likely leak spot. At least that's where I would look first.
 
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tdskip

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IMO the aluminum plug under the rocker cover is a more likely leak spot. At least that's where I would look first.

Hi Randall (and Dan), pulled the valve cover off but I am not sure where I should be looking to inspect that plug. Could someone help me located it please?

Thanks for the help.
 

TR3driver

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There's a raised circle in the casting, roughly centered fore/aft but over to the manifold side of the head. The top of the aluminum is milled level with the gasket surface, no slot or socket to remove it. Not certain, I think the factory threaded the plug into place, then milled it; but it might have been cast that way.

Edit: Here's a sketch from 'More BS' that might help
cylinder%20head%20plug.jpg~original
 
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tdskip

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Found it but no obvious leaks there, but I haven't tried to clean the cylinder head yet. How do I determine if that is it? Would it be obvious is that was the point of failure?

Thanks for the help.

Not my car but image here shows it at the visibly shiny circle I believe.

vangardhead1.JPG
 

TR3driver

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That's a strange looking head! Low ports, no heater port, and looks like the stud holes are too small! Ferguson tractor?

Anyway, yes, that's the plug. Take a punch and hammer and tap on it in a few places. Should be solid as an aluminum rock. If you can dent it easily, it is probably rotted from the inside.

Or another approach might be to pressurize the cooling system with air and see where it comes out. I have a Schrader valve (and a stack of adapters) mounted in place of the heater valve for just that purpose.
 

2long

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Sorry about the failure - that sucks. But on the bright side, al the parts are clean and you surely caught it before damage occurred. Have you inspected the head gasket to look for evidence of failure along the seating lines?

Randall, f that aluminum plug is well corroded and dents easily, can the plug be replaced without removing the head? Is there a special method to remove one that is eaten up (like mine)?

Dan
 

TR3driver

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Sorry, Dan, one of the few things I've never had to tackle myself. I'm guessing that it's not hard to pry out the corroded plug (in pieces if necessary); then you need to run a pipe tap (3/4 NPT IIRC) in to clean up the threads, followed by installing a standard pipe plug with a smear of sealant on the threads. I don't see any reason it couldn't be done with the head on the engine, but you'd want to flush the engine thoroughly afterwards, with the radiator disconnected, to get out any stray chips that fell down inside the head. Packing the tap flutes with grease can help catch chips, but won't guarantee that none escape.
 
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tdskip

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What size liners and pistons? And whose head gasket did you use?

Good morning gentlemen, thanks for the ideas and help.

She was built up using the Moss 89mm piston / liner kit. Not sure on head gasket specifically but builder was very experienced and only used good quality components.

Will check the aluminum plug this morning and report back.
 

karls59tr

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On the subject of cylinder heads:































In regard to the aluminum plug. Does "hot tanking" the cylinder head completely destroy the plug or just deteriorate the plug to the point where it still looks good in appearance but is compromised on the inside? Also is it possible to properly clean a head without hot tanking it..... and after the valve seats are done is blowing out the head with compressed air good enough to get all the machining particles out?
 
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tdskip

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OK - update as of right now.

Randall - I used a punch and tapped the aluminum plug and it is solid.

Drained the oil and, well, just oil came out. Dirty but no coolant.

When this happened yesterday when I released the radiator cap very slightly initially it resulted in lots of bubbling in the overflow tank. Is it normal for that to happen as pressure is released from the radiator? If the overflow tank was overflowing even when the car wasn't overheating does that suggest the system was over-pressurized, which in turn suggests a head gasket leak (since leaking head gasket will allow combustion gases into the cooling system thereby increasing pressure in the system)?

Thanks!
 

JerryVV

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Go to a friendly garage and have them check for hydrocarbons in you cooling system. If you want to do it yourself there is a simple tool which you can buy at a full service parts store to check this if you prefer to. Basically it draws gases from the radiator and turns a liquid a different color if hydrocarbons are present. The good news, if there is any, and you do have a head gasket problem is that it has not leaked into your oil. If you use antifreeze in your coolant and it leaks into the oil it can cause bearing problems. Get it checked asap. Here is a link to the kit
https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-75500-Combustion-Leak-Detector/dp/B0007ZDRUI
Maybe you just had the system too full and that's why the overflow bottle was full. I hope that's the issue.
 

TR3driver

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Bubbling in the tank just says there was air in the radiator, which might just mean you were low on coolant when you started the engine.

But it does suggest a leaking head gasket. I've had a lot of trouble with leaking head gaskets on TR motors and that's always the form it has taken for me. Often, the leak only shows up while running the engine under load.

There's a neat tool called a "block tester" that will tell you for sure if combustion gases are getting into the coolant. Any radiator shop can do the test for you, but the tool is fairly cheap.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/oes-27145?seid=srese1&gclid=CMyurOO9-ssCFceBfgodr3AMwQ
You'll also need the test fluid if it doesn't come with the tool
https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-75630-...469_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=17HX83YAS8JCC00F1FVZ

If you pull the head to change the gasket, be sure to check the liner protrusion on both sides. I only checked on one side for years, until I finally figured out it was not the same on the other side! Of course, the side I checked was fine, it was the other side that was way too low.

Although the right solution would be to have the block machined to correct the problem; I came up with a band-aid solution that has worked well for me for a long time.

Just a ring of 26 AWG (.016") bare copper wire (soft or "half-hard"), around each cylinder next to the fold in the head gasket, tacked in place with ordinary soft solder. The photo above shows how I overlapped the ends, of course I went back and soldered them after the photo. I got the wire at McMaster-Carr, but I'm sure there are lots of other sources (probably cheaper).
https://www.mcmaster.com/?m=true#8873k24/=11v6nh4
 

TR3driver

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Also is it possible to properly clean a head without hot tanking it..... and after the valve seats are done is blowing out the head with compressed air good enough to get all the machining particles out?
That's what I've always done (or had done). Plus a little solvent to dissolve any cutting oil (which might hold particles).
 

malbaby

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Together with the above recommendations.........When rebuilding my engine I found that head gaskets were slightly different in the bore diameter and quality from one supplier/manufacturer to another. Might be worth checking that yours was a correct fit.
 
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tdskip

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Thanks guys - encouraged the oil looked OK but something still quite off.

Will try to get the exhaust in the coolant test done tomorrow.
 
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