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TR2/3/3A Timing, fuel mixture, complete headache and total misunderstanding of it all

2billydavies

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Hi everyone... me again. lol
So my TR3a is completely out of timing and i'm almost positive the fuel/air mixture is completely whacked as well. Totally my fault due to the fact that after reading a million posts, manuals, and anything I could get my eyeballs on... I still don't have a complete understanding of how to time this thing correctly.

First... my biggest headache, the timing. In the manual it says the cam arm on top of the distributor (cover off) should point towards #1 spark plug. Well, no matter how many times I spin the crank, that cam will not point towards #1 spark plug. It's not even close. It's ALWAYS pointing in the wrong direction. Any idea why? Is it that important that is should point to #1 spark plug?
Secondly... the vacuum unit. Should this be pointing straight ahead? right now, if you look down on it, it points to the left but more towards the left horn. Definitely NOT straight ahead... off to an angle in a 7:00 o'clock position instead of 9 o'clock. Not sure how important that is. I hardly even understand the little nut on it and retarding/advancing this think. It's driving me crazy...

As for the mixture of gas/air. I have turned these nuts on the bottom of each carb so many times i'm positive the mixture is all screwed up. Spark plugs aren't exactly sopping soaked... but they're wet. But the exhaust is not black coming out he tailpipe at all... nor is it white. To be honest... I don't even see smoke coming out of it. My question is: What is the best possible starting point to get these carbs synced with the perfect mixture? They're so screwed up now, I have no starting point. Should I turn then all the way clockwise and just start gradually going from there? Or maybe all the way clockwise and back off gradually?

And here comes the really, really dumb question of the day. Speaking of the mixture nut at the bottom of the carbs. And i'm almost embarrassed to ask this ridiculous question, but after 3 weeks of driving me crazy I'm going to do it:
counter-clockwise, according to the manual, is to enrich the mixture. I get that... but is counter clockwise of the nut done as if i'm Standing OVER the carbs and look down on it and spinning it OR is counter clockwise as if i was standing on the SIDE of the carbs and doing it?? It's driving me crazy because if I think about it hard enough and depending HOW i'm looking at the carbs, one way could mean one way as well as the other way! Does this even make sense?? lol... it's literally driving me crazy!!

I would just LOVE a "starting point" for these carb mixtures.

Ok... there's my line of questioning! After a few laughs.... please help! lol

THANKS EVERYONE... this forum has been a LIFESAVER!
 

NutmegCT

Great Pumpkin
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Bill - #1: do you have a workshop manual to guide you?

#2: Not sure what you mean by " no matter how many times I spin the crank, that cam will not point towards #1 spark plug". Cranking the engine doesn't "align" the cam; that's your job as you do the timing. But, I'm wondering if your distributor isn't set properly (needs rotating clockwise or counter clockwise a bit).

Are you thinking the cam should point toward the actual #1 spark plug? or toward the #1 spark plug contact inside the distributor?

Tom M.
 

CJD

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For the distributor, someone installed it a tooth or 2 off. Then, to get the timing correct, they had to turn the distributor to the left to align with the initial offset they installed. It will run just fine like that, but as you saw, the vacuum unit is pointed wrong and you may have trouble with the line connection.

The fix would be to remove and correctly install the distributor so the rotor does point to the #1 plug.
 

CJD

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Lean is as if you were looking upward at the nut, from under. So it would be ccw if looking Downward "through" the carbs. I'd tighten both nuts fully, and then unscrew 1-1/2 to 2 turns as your starting point.

Oh, almost forgot. Wet is mis-firing. Rich would be black and sooty looking. So either you are so rich that it is missing, or you have an ignition problem. Fix any ignition issues before trying to adjust the carbs.
 

Mickey Richaud

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Deep breath, Billy...

OK, now - first of all, you don't need to "spin" the starter. Doing so will hardly ever orient the rotor exactly on #1 (or anywhere else, for that matter). Turn the crank slowly until you are at top dead center. For an in-depth how-to, check here (be sure to read both pages before beginning; it'll help make sense):

https://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/ign-timing.htm

As for setting the carbs, rotation is referenced when looking down. (Actually, if you think about it, it's the same if you're looking from the side - it's just that the "clock" is in a different plane.) Start by turning in all the way (but don't force it!), and then backing out about two full turns. Again, for more info, check this out, again reading it all first:

https://britishclassicmotors.com/3301.html

And here: https://britishclassicmotors.com/media/b542a3b3e31aeb72ffff806affffd524.pdf

There's quite a lot of info on the internet; Google search SU carburetor tuning/adjustment and you'll have plenty of reading material.

Hope this helps,
Mickey
 

Mickey Richaud

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Couple of guys beat me to it. But as you can see, lots of help here - keep us posted on your progress!
 

TR3driver

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A few more things:
Make sure the valve lash and timing are correct before worrying too much about mixture. Valve lash in particular will affect the mixture adjustment, and trouble setting the mixture almost always indicates that something else is wrong besides the adjustment.

Also make sure the jets are centered properly. If you lift each carb piston in turn to the top and release it, it should fall smoothly and land with a distinct 'click'. No click probably means the jet is not centered (but could be the piston binding). Either one will make it impossible to get an accurate mixture adjustment.

If you don't have the manuals, see
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2H2NJt34OffYWZiN2VlZGMtNTkxMi00NGUzLWE4NzMtMGRkODRkYzU3MDU1
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2H2NJt34OffNjQ4MTkyNjItZTVmYi00M2U2LWJhYWUtMjEyZDgxMzUyNzUw
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2H2NJt34OffM2xJeDVPbkRMSWs
(I suggest you download them to your hard drive)

After you turn a mixture nut leaner, push up on the jet to be certain the jet followed the nut. Sometimes they don't. After you're done, try pulling the choke out and releasing it, then check that both jets are firmly against the nut. It's not uncommon to find that they don't reliably return (which is another problem to be solved).

The engine doesn't like to stop at TDC, because one cylinder will be full of compressed air that wants to keep it turning. One way to turn the engine accurately is to put the transmission in 4th gear and push the car forward or backwards a bit. I find that I can just push against the body, but if you need more leverage, push on top of a tire.
 

malbaby

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As above ..set timing correctly first.
Have your carbs been proven to operate correctly in the past.
Have your carbs been reconditioned and checked for matching mixture needle and main jet size and set up correctly.
Adjusting carbs correctly can be time consuming.
 

poolboy

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Get the manuals, but in addition it might be best to get someone show you how to do a tune up the first time.
There should be several British Car Clubs in the Sun Coast area. Ask around.
 

pdplot

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I don't static time an engine but if I did, I would put the car in gear and rock it as I do when checking the points.
I use a timing light on the #1 plug and crank it up. Once the timing is set, it seldom has to be adjusted for a long time. At least that's been my experience fooling around with these cars for almost 70 years/
 

bobhustead

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You sound very confused and frustrated, so forgive if I get too elementary here.
I pull the plugs (no compression to fight after that) and turn the crank via the fan. When the little hole in the back flange of the crank pulley is exactly lined up with the pointer on the timing cover, the front piston is at top dead center. If, at this point, the valve rockers for #1 have a little lash, it is top dead center on the compression stroke, which is when the distributor rotor should be pointing to # 1 plug. If, when the dot and pointer are lined up, the #1 valve rockers are tight against the valve stems (no lash) you are at top dead center of the #1 exhaust stroke. At TDC compression stroke, if the rotor doesn't point to #1 plug you can lift the distributor out of its hole and rotate the shaft one tooth at a time until alignment to #1 is acheived. The bottom of the distributor engages the oil pump by a flat tip screwdrive type mechanism. When you move the dist. shaft, you may have to lift the dist out altogether and put a flat screwdriver into the oil pump drive and move it a little in the same direction as you move the dist shaft so as to allow the dist to slide into the slot on the oil pump shaft. Make sure it goes all the way down into the locking clamp when you put it back in. When you get the dist shaft lined up to point to #1 plug, rotate the distributor body so that the rotor also points to the place where the #1 plug wire attaches in the distributor. the rotor has to be there for the spark to jump to that cylinder. Now you have everything grossly lined up. Then, with the cap off, and the dist loosely bolted down, rotate the body of the dist counterclockwise enough to close the points.Then rotate the dist body clockwise so the points rubbing block is high atop the bump on the dist shaft. Lighty tighten the dist in place and then set your points to the specified gap. It helps to have a flat washer under the points screw so the act of tightening the screw doesn't move the points and change the gap. Now you just need to preliminarily time it. Push the fan counterclockwise so the hole in the pulley is about 1/4 inch counterclockwise from the pointer on the timing cover. Again, turn the dist body counterclockwise a little bit until the points are closed. Final step, rotate the dist body clockwise until the points just barely crack open. You can eyeball this or use a test light or multimeter to find the precise moment of opening. Tighten the dist down for the final time, put in the plugs, and crank it up. Once it warms up, you can do a pretty good job of final timing by turning the dist body clockwise until you get the fastest idle, then go back counterclockwise until you scrub off 100 or so rpm. Lock the dist down and you are good to go.
Bob
 

TR-3rg

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Hi, I tried timing my TR3 with a light when I first got it. It does not work because the mechanical advance is not fully retarded at idle speed.

I had a idle issue with mine that drove me nuts for a year. The mechanical advance was broke. The timing would change on its own from 5 advanced to about 7 retarded. The RPM went from about 900 to 500. Based on Internet posts, this is a common problem with the Lucas DM2 (original) distributer. Its easy to check, pop the cap and twist the rotor clockwise, does it spring back? Same thing counter clockwise. If it does not spring back, its time for a rebuild or after market distributor.

Good luck, Roy
 
OP
2billydavies

2billydavies

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wow... this is some good stuff. lol. it has literally been driving me crazy. yes, inhaveI have the shop manual but some of the questions I had just weren't in there... im going to give it another try tomorrow. injust couldn't make sense of why, in the shop manual it says that the rotor head should point towards #1 spark plug, it just wouldn't no matter how many times I hand-turned the crack. now, I'm positive my father installed it a few teeth off as suggested above. that was the starting point of my madness.
thanks a ton everyone... going to give it another try in the morning. I'm letting her cool off for a little. im pretty sure she's mad at me for the words I called her today... if she was my wife i would be on the couch for a month. again.
 

NutmegCT

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Bill - take a look at this page:

https://www.goldcoastbritcar.com/

Toward the bottom is a list of Florida British car clubs. Check around and I'll bet you'll find someone who's done the timing and tune-up bit, and will help you get started in this new adventure!

Tom
 

sp53

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Number 1 piston comes up twice! Once with the valves open and once with the valves closed. In your case I would pull the plugs and the valve cover. Now look inside with a flashlight at # 1 turn the motor over either by pushing the car in 4 gear or by hand. With the plugs out it will turn easy. Now watch the # 1 come up and watch # 1 valves. When #1 piston is up, and the valves are closed, that is number 1 TDC on compression stroke.

Now look at the rotor on the distributor; it should point at the last push rod tube and the timing mark on the pulley should line up with the pointer on the timing chain cover for everything to by factory correct.

There are many variables were the engine will run and the factory marks are not proper. For example, the pulley comes apart and can be assembled in many positions and the lower marks are off! Someone could have put the distributor in wrong and moved the wires on the cap until they get the car to run by creating a different firing order.
Do what is suggested in the first paragraph to see where you are at. If some of this stuff is done wrong, nothing will look right or line up; but it may run just fine.

The other guys gave you all the fuel stuff and in the end you need to time it by ear. The 4 degrees on the pulley only happens when the marks are all correct and the 4 degrees is only close enough not optimal.
 

TR3driver

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Number 1 piston comes up twice! Once with the valves open and once with the valves closed. In your case I would pull the plugs and the valve cover. Now look inside with a flashlight at # 1 turn the motor over either by pushing the car in 4 gear or by hand. With the plugs out it will turn easy. Now watch the # 1 come up and watch # 1 valves. When #1 piston is up, and the valves are closed, that is number 1 TDC on compression stroke.

Now look at the rotor on the distributor; it should point at the last push rod tube
I'm sure this is just a typo, but the rotor should be pointing towards the first pushrod tube, not the last.

And as noted, this is just a nominal relationship. What is important is that the rotor is pointing to where the #1 terminal will be when the cap is installed; meaning that the #1 spark plug would get the spark. If the drive gear was not installed in the correct relationship to the camshaft, then the DPO (or his mechanic) may shuffled the spark plug wires around, and/or turned the distributor body to compensate for the gear position. The engine will run just fine that way, it doesn't "care" as long as the correct cylinder gets the spark at the correct time. But if you do find that has happened, you might want to consider taking it apart and moving the gear, to reduce confusion in the future.

A loong time ago, I bought a TR3A that was "running when parked" with the intention of making it run again on site, and driving it home. I had very little money, and hiring a tow truck would have doubled the price of the car. The plug wires looked pretty ratty, so I thought I'd be clever and borrow the cap & wires off Dad's TR3A. Spent several days standing out in the cold, ankle deep in snow, before finally giving up and towing it home with a rope. Spent another day fiddling with it before it finally dawned on me what the problem was. Dad's car had the wires swapped around! I put the old cap & wires back on, and it fired right up.
 
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2billydavies

2billydavies

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hi guys...
well... i'm on day 3 of "setting the timing" and i'm taking this entire ordeal to a whole new level. lol... this car runs worse than before I rebuilt the engine and had every ring on every piston broken and laying in the oil pan. i'm sort of in shock that I was able to take the engine out, rebuild the entire thing myself without even having seen the inside of a car engine, put it back in.... start it right up and have it run really good... then completely screw it all up by touching the timing system for some unknown reason just because the vacuum unit wasn't as straight at the picture in the manual and not being able to pull out of my driveway now. lol... that's where i'm at right now.

Bear with me on some probably pretty basic questions:
Is the car actually in TDC when I have the mark on the pulley aligned with the pointer on the timing chain cover OR do I have to worry about the compression stroke / exhaust stroke? I've read in numerous articles that I need to make sure that it is on the compression stroke... but for some reason it doesn't really tell me clearly in the manual.

2nd... I completely understand the points, the gap, etc... got that right I think. but I am confused on the timing light part of it. Everything says to hook up the timing light to the "distributor side of the coil..." which clearly I have NO clue what "side" that is. If someone could tell me in a 2nd grade vocabulary exactly HOW and WHERE this timing light should hook up that would be awesome. And this leads into my last question that has stumped me beyond any manual written in simple English:

The turning of the distributor after the timing light is ready to go: I understand putting the rubbing block on the highest point of the 4-lobed shaft when setting the point gap. However... when I rotate the distributor during the timing light part of it... do I want to set it as one of the 4 lobes approaches the rubbing block in a counterclockwise motion OR do I want to set it as the lobe hits the rubbing block and then goes into its backspin past it? There's a pretty good space in between those two and seems to me like it would affect the timing both ways. I guess my question is do I rotate the distributor clockwise or counterclockwise to get the timing light to turn on/off and break the circuit?

I would literally buy anyone a plane ticket, put you all up in a hotel on the beach, and give you some spending money to come set the timing on this car for me at this point. it's driving me nuts! lol

thanks!
 

poolboy

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Is there no one you can ask to come over and show you ?
It would be worth contacting one of the clubs in your area, think of the air fair and lodging cost you'd save just by making a few phone calls.
People in car clubs love meeting other owners, seeing their cars and sharing their experience.
 

TR3driver

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Is the car actually in TDC when I have the mark on the pulley aligned with the pointer on the timing chain cover OR do I have to worry about the compression stroke / exhaust stroke? I've read in numerous articles that I need to make sure that it is on the compression stroke... but for some reason it doesn't really tell me clearly in the manual.
TDC (top dead center) refers to the piston position (usually #1 piston). But, this is a 4 stroke engine, and each cylinder only fires on every other revolution. If #1 is at TDC on the exhaust stroke, then #4 is the cylinder that should fire, not #1. So yeah, sometimes it is important. The manuals usually say something like look at the rotor position when it matters.

Which brings up another point: It might be easier if you would tell us which procedure in which book you are trying to follow, so we can help interpret it. There are multiple ways to accomplish most things, and I get the impression that they are getting mixed together, adding to the confusion.
Everything says to hook up the timing light to the "distributor side of the coil..." which clearly I have NO clue what "side" that is. If someone could tell me in a 2nd grade vocabulary exactly HOW and WHERE this timing light should hook up that would be awesome.
Ok, the first problem is that is not how to connect a "timing" light. A "timing" light is a strobe light used while the engine is running, which is connected to the #1 plug wire. (I'm not trying to be insulting here, just want to be certain you've got the right tool for the job at hand.)

You should be connecting a test light (a simple bulb that comes on when power is applied) between the "distributor side of the coil" and ground. In this context, "distributor side" refers to the side terminal that has a wire running over to the distributor (where it eventually connects to the points).
And this leads into my last question that has stumped me beyond any manual written in simple English:

The turning of the distributor after the timing light is ready to go: I understand putting the rubbing block on the highest point of the 4-lobed shaft when setting the point gap. However... when I rotate the distributor during the timing light part of it... do I want to set it as one of the 4 lobes approaches the rubbing block in a counterclockwise motion OR do I want to set it as the lobe hits the rubbing block and then goes into its backspin past it? There's a pretty good space in between those two and seems to me like it would affect the timing both ways. I guess my question is do I rotate the distributor clockwise or counterclockwise to get the timing light to turn on/off and break the circuit?
The spark happens as the contact points open. Normally the shaft turns CCW. So what you are interested in is when the points first open (test light comes on) as the distributor body is turned CW.

I would literally buy anyone a plane ticket, put you all up in a hotel on the beach, and give you some spending money to come set the timing on this car for me at this point. it's driving me nuts! lol

thanks!
Sorry, I hate flying :D Should've asked a few months ago, when I was visiting family in Lake Placid.
 
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