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aeronca65t
08-07-2007, 09:44 AM
This link came in through the VRG e-mail list (so I'll guess that Dave and Michael and maybe others have already seen it).

It's a recent incident with a Turner at Lime Rock that lost a rim through failure of the wheel spider.
I lost a wheel at BeaveRun two years ago due to stud failure, so I know how this feels.

This shows an example of using very old parts that may have been fatigued with time and use (and there are many other variables such as rust, improper torques, modern, sticky tires and so forth).

Always good to inspect our cars, especially since they are often full of parts that are 40+ years old!
(of course, then again, many of *us* are full of parts that are even older /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif )

~~LINK~~
http://www.cwnicholls.net/limerock/2007LRPJuly/target287.html


http://www.cwnicholls.net/limerock/2007LRPJuly/images/img_6806.jpg

billspohn
08-07-2007, 09:53 AM
Always good to inspect our cars, especially since they are often full of parts that are 40+ years old!


The scary thing is that with steel wheels, unless they already show cracks, you can't tell anything without stripping all the paint off and magnafluxing the rim - ever know anyone that went that far?

Alloy wheels are so much stronger. MGA steel wheels even brand new are known to collapse under the stresses modern rubber puts on them.

What a shame - nice Turner!

tony barnhill
08-07-2007, 09:59 AM
Do you have photos of the wheel & one that didn't give?

aeronca65t
08-07-2007, 10:30 AM
Tony:

The link above will show all of the wheels, damage,etc.

Meanwhile, here is a picture of the broken wheel with a "good" wheel next to it

http://www.cwnicholls.net/limerock/2007LRPJuly/images/img_6805.jpg


And here is the brake drum post crash with part of the spider still attached

http://www.cwnicholls.net/limerock/2007LRPJuly/images/img_6818.jpg

GB1
08-07-2007, 10:38 AM
Wow:

And my fear was always the rivets as a stress point.

Pat

tony barnhill
08-07-2007, 10:40 AM
DITTO!! WOW! I never would've expected a wheel to separate like that!

Its as if he locked the brakes at high speed & the momentum twisted the spider apart!

spridgetpwr84
08-07-2007, 11:11 AM
Its amazing what can fail.

Im in the habit of checking the major stress poinits after every event. Over the years I have had cracks show up in wheels(Alloy), A Arms at the swaybar attachment points, Spindles, and other strange places you wouldnt expect.

JerryB
08-07-2007, 01:12 PM
There might be more to this that meets the eye.....the pictures show what might be the problem.

Is that 7/16" studs or the 3/8" wheel studs ?

And a picture of the profile of the lug nut will tell all.

Twosheds
08-07-2007, 01:31 PM
There might be more to this that meets the eye.....the pictures show what might be the problem.

Is that 7/16" studs or the 3/8" wheel studs ?

And a picture of the profile of the lug nut will tell all.

I see what you mean.

Hap Waldrop
08-07-2007, 01:32 PM
Who in the heck would race a nice car like that on 40 year old steel wheels anyway. Why we're talking about this, this is why you would never want to powder coat wheels, as powder coating hides cracks, that why you won't find any wheel companies powder coating wheels.

JerryB
08-07-2007, 01:42 PM
Hap.......

I agree.......but I feel there is another problem of using the wrong hardware with that wheel ....or not torqued before going out. Those wheels are heavy heavy and will support a tank let alone an 1200# Turner. Still they need to be inspected as usual after every race when the car is washed-down. I THINK that they were fine when he went out.....and it all happened in one session. But I dont have all the info....but have seen this before.

Roger
08-07-2007, 01:54 PM
Those nuts look way too small to my eye.

aeronca65t
08-07-2007, 03:19 PM
Since we are talking about wheels coming off, here is another, recent Turner "wheel off", also at Lime Rock.
As you can see, this problem is quite different (sorry about the big pictures...not mine).

~~Link To Pictures~~
http://www.dougfraser.com/turner/index.htm#10

http://www.dougfraser.com/turner/images/DAF-2005-09-16-010x.jpg


http://www.dougfraser.com/turner/images/DAF-2005-09-16-005x.jpg

Nunyas
08-07-2007, 05:01 PM
WOW! sheered the drum! never seen that before!

tony barnhill
08-07-2007, 07:32 PM
I'm nowhere an expert (heck, I'm less than a novice) - however, to me that looks like too much brake at high speed.....Hap?

WhatsThatNoise
08-07-2007, 07:49 PM
Wow...
The first one happened using those puny vintage tires.
(Dunlap 450L)

And the second one happened with drum brakes.
(not disks on the front)

*thinking*
cantilevered slicks & calipers would be even harder on the old parts.

Tullamore
08-08-2007, 03:01 PM
When I was running my Cobra out at Autobahn I had a similar thing happen to my rotor. Luckily the track was already under yellow and I wasn't going that fast as I went straight off the corner.

http://www.fordmustang.us/gallery/d/11823-2/IMG_4869.jpg

DrEntropy
08-09-2007, 11:18 PM
Stresses and materials failures are part and parcel of racing. Best thing I've seen so-far in this thread is Hap's admonishment against powder-coating wheels.

Nobody can predict the future, but if you race you MAY want to hedge yer bets and do regular inspections of EVERY piece of the car.

"It ain't just a JOB... It's yer BUTT!" /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/devilgrin.gif

JerryB
08-10-2007, 01:00 PM
"""""against powder-coating wheels. """"""

or any suspension pieces...or for that matter anything on a race car that holds something.


"""""Nobody can predict the future""""

and your right Doc....but this car looks like from the pictures that it might not get good car prep and that not very often.

Picture 1; the wheel has the original rivets only. Frequent checking might show any working of the rim on the spider but best case would be to weld the two with a bead on each foot.

Picture 2; the upper trunnion bushing looks goofy....whats that all about? From the grease and mung around the spindle nut and cotter key it looks like the drum has not been off in a while. And from the picture it looks like the drum was working the crack for quite a while.

Unfortunately there is a lot of this in vintage racing...where the car gets put on the trailer after a race and doest come off the trailer till the next race. This stuff should be reported to the VMC for their list for just such incidents by the sanctioning club for that race...but seldom is.

Greg_Blake
08-10-2007, 10:05 PM
Sorry, off topic, does anyone know who owns/drives the #24 EP TR3 in the pictures?

Twosheds
08-11-2007, 09:49 AM
I am going to guess Joe Boruch.

DrEntropy
08-12-2007, 04:16 AM
Unfortunately there is a lot of this in vintage racing...where the car gets put on the trailer after a race and doest come off the trailer till the next race. This stuff should be reported to the VMC for their list for just such incidents by the sanctioning club for that race...but seldom is. yup. Seen it too often.

And the agreement that the hub/bearing there look as if it hadn't been TOUCHED in ages. That kind of stuff endangers everyone on the track along with him... bad ju-ju.

When I said no-one can predict the future, I was suggesting it'd be good to "hedge yer bets" and due diligence would dictate some proper tear-down/inspection before 'n after each event. I've found some pretty scary stuff happened which would lead to component failure in a matter of laps if not corrected. Not always the forty year old bits, either. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Bugeye58
08-12-2007, 04:24 AM
It's not only vintage racing, either.
My game plan after a race weekend has always been to get the wheels off, do a very thorough nut and bolt inspection on all components, and check or change all the fluids. A few years ago, a buddy grenaded a rear end while driving my car. As we were changing it, people were actually taking pictures, because they had never seen me work on my car at the track!
Preparation, preparation, preparation!!
Jef

aeronca65t
08-12-2007, 06:29 AM
.....people were actually taking pictures, because they had never seen me work on my car at the track!
Preparation, preparation, preparation!!
Jef

Ditto here!

I *hate* working on my car at the track. It's much easier and more fruitful to do that work ahead of time. So yeah, after each event: power wash the entire car, then up on the stands, fluids changed, wheels off, bearings checked, suspension and brakes examined, etc.

I will say that even with this, my car often looks filthy after an enduro (especially a 3 or 4 hour).

kcbugeye1275
08-12-2007, 07:12 AM
Although part failure is a part of racing, vintage racing is a little different in that a racer is supposed to race clean and the end result of the race is not to win, but enjoy these old cars in a clean noncontact way. It seems to me racing these old wheels, and not maintaining the cars is a pretty big violation of this spirit.

DrEntropy
08-13-2007, 05:23 PM
It seems to me racing these old wheels, and not maintaining the cars is a pretty big violation of this spirit.
/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif


I keep going back to the pix and I think Roger hit it. The nuts are wrong for the wheels. Stress risers introduced with the nuts look to have started the failure (impossible to tell for certain, I know). It ~is~ kinda silly to run wheels that old, they flex a bunch and fatigue is a factor. But it now looks to me as if those (improper) nuts exascerbated said failure.

Twosheds
08-13-2007, 05:39 PM
I keep going back to the pix and I think Roger hit it. The nuts are wrong for the wheels. Stress risers introduced with the nuts look to have started the failure (impossible to tell for certain, I know). It ~is~ kinda silly to run wheels that old, they flex a bunch and fatigue is a factor. But it now looks to me as if those (improper) nuts exascerbated said failure.

That's what I thought. The studs look too small for the holes in the wheels and the nuts do not seem to be chamfered to fit in the recesses in the wheels.

No amount of crack inspections would have helped if the hardware is wrong.

By the way, I know that paint must be removed prior to dye penetrant inspection, but would eddy current or magnetic particle inspection detect cracks under powder coat? They detect sub-surface flaws. Or X-ray?

Michael Oritt
08-13-2007, 08:32 PM
My Elva has front uprights out of a drum-braked Triumph Herald. There is really no way of effectively crack-testing the spindles without removing them from the uprights so recently I dissassembled the front suspension so I could have them pressed out--I had already decided that it would be a good thing to have some new ones made at a local machine shop. I had two new sets made--with reversed thread for the left-hand side.

Anyway in taking things apart I noticed that both uprights were handed the same way and both trunnions were marked "right". I can only assume that someone in the car's past found it expedient to replace a damaged left upright with a right one! As luck would have it I bought a very nice pair of uprights and trunnions off of Ebay about two months ago for such a rainy day and so was able to put in a proper left upright and trunnion. I now have two spare right uprights.

Hap Waldrop
08-14-2007, 06:40 AM
Michael, you can get a dye penatrant crack checking kit form places like Goodson Tool, it's a handy thing to have around, and gives you a good way to crack check at the track if you have a big off, and are worried about anyhting like a spindle. The SCCA guys run so darn fast at Road Atlanta, almost all of use let our cars slam over the curbing on the exit of T5, it one of those things you rather not do, but if everyone is doing it and you want to keep up, you're force to do it as well, I don't see many vintage guys do this there, but I have to admit it's good for a full second around the place and since I have the art of it down, I'll probably introduce it to my vintage buddies when I strat racing vintage there. I always pay close attention to my right side spindle after a race at Raod Atlanta.