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WhatsThatNoise
11-06-2006, 06:42 PM
I was reading about Spridget head torquing and thought I'd post a query.
Then I figured it might require its own thread.

OK.....
How do you usually torque new ARP bolts.
Do you use the special ARP lube (different, generally lower torque) or 30W? (Higher torque)
Do you go 1/2 way on all then smoothly "back & forth it" bringing it right up to torque on the 3rd CW swing?
Or do you do a steady pull up to torque.
Just wondering......

Also....The 4 most critical torques are flywheel, mains, rods & head (in this order?)
(also wheel studs)
I assume everyone is using ARP for ALL?
And probably AN hardware for other stuff like prop shaft & suspension???

Hap Waldrop
11-06-2006, 07:05 PM
I use the assembly lube or 30wt motor oil, I do not alter torque amount for thier assembly though. I went through that years ago with a ARP tech person, I ask them why should I alter my methods if they had worked with thier fastners for so long, in the end he recommend I torque to the same level I had always done with the assmebly lube or 30 wt.. I understand that thier lube causes less friction, so maybe less torque is needed, I just didn't trust it and bascily got thier blessing to ignore it. I do cylcle torque three times, as for as I know only thier rod bolts come with that instructions but I do it on the head stud kits as well. I always on the 1275 rod bolts only use part# 206-6001 the proper part number for the 1275, some folks are selling Chevy 396-454 rod bolts for 1275 to make more money, but the head of the bolt is wrong for the rod, so if it doesn't have "J" head and the 12 point nut and in a #206-6001 pack BEWARE!!!! On the 1275, the stud kit only works on a stock main caps , if you have a center main strap or a center 4 bolt cap, then ARP stud kits are not offered, for that reason I run grade 8 bolts, so did Taber (Comptune) and so does Huffaker. On the flywheel bolts, this is the only high number torqued fastner I locktite on the engine, because I've seen many flywheel bolt failures on Spridget, so I locktite and then torque them down. On the head nuts I step torque them , meaning I start out about say 30 ft. lbs and then go to say 40, then onto 50, when I retorque after cranking I increase by 1 pound to 51 ft. lbs., and never loosen when doing a retorque, on all the rest of the fastners I just go the desired torque. On all th other engine faster which for the most part are 1/4" or 5/16 I use grade 8 yellow zinc fastners (partly because they look so cool and are good /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) and locktite all of them except nylocks.

WhatsThatNoise
11-06-2006, 07:26 PM
Somewhere I heard that locktite interfered w/ torques so I have always relied on bolt stretch.

I am however concerned about aluminum flywheel heat cycling (movement which alternately stretches & relaxes the bolts)

Anyone know the expansion rate of aluminum?
Anyone know how hot a flywheel gets?
Is it taken up by flywheel bolt stretch?
Can the bolts take that kind of cycling?

Next time, I think, I'm gonna pay for a slotted steel one.
(more expensive than Fidenza to get to 10 lbs)

WTH.....Anyone make a titanium one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Rats....Titanium moves a lot also......Need titanium bolts for it.

DrEntropy
11-06-2006, 07:38 PM
Coefficient of expansion of aluminium compared with steel is AMAZINGLY greater... If th' noise you're hearin' is a "tinkling" in the bellhousing, PIT NOW!!!

Havin' ya on, Dave. If you do an "annual" and use new bolts on the flywheel, you should be FINE.


Judges?

Hap uses *GASP* LocTite on his FLYWHEEL bolts?!?!? ~HAPPY DANCE~!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif

WhatsThatNoise
11-06-2006, 07:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen many flywheel bolt failures on Spridget

[/ QUOTE ]
Not a MisHap I hope...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Do tell /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sometimes I have this nightmare about getting chased around the car by an angry flywheel.http://forum.superclickers.co.uk/images/smilies/frightened.gif

Hap Waldrop
11-07-2006, 06:41 AM
Yep, I do use red locktite on Flywheel bolt, after I suffered one failure and a customer suffered another failure, that's my only two over a very long time, but I seen it happen to a bunch of other folks as well. One good thing about the runoffs is you get a bunch of the good guys together at one time and can get a concensus on things like this, all this was on race cars, Flywheel bolts on the race cars seem to give everyone trouble, it's a fairly common practice. Also I recommend not re-using the flywheel bolts, the ARP are $20 bucks or so just replace them everytime. On the MGBs, I let you in on a little secret, use SBC 12 point flywheel bolts, there is no listing for the B-series engines.

Is your Fidanza flywheel for a B-series engine? If so, 3 or 5 main. The reason I ask I have one new 5 main Fidanza 7.25" clutch unit left, I bought alot of overstock from Fidanza a couple of years ago and this is the last one, it the smaller 5 main unit, and since it's the last one, I'm ready to let it go cheap, really cheap.
I think Prather is re-working the stock steel units, but don't hold me to it, I know he doesn't like aluminum flywheels. I bought a really nice billet steel unit and a 7.25" tilton clutch from Chima that came off his Elva, to use on Eddie's (Huffaker MGB) motor. It was really nice unt weighed 8.5 pounds.

For what it's worth on the flywheel bolt failures for the most part I seen on the race cars they were not extremly nasty, the driver just felt a vibration and shut off, the only one I had fail pretty much went that way too. I did however get a engine one time from at that time a first time customer who had vary nasty flywheel mishap, I think he ignored the warning signs and kept his foot in the gas, it completely destroyed the crank hub and almost sawed itself out of the bellhousing. The funny part of this story was it was a vintage guy who had a destroked billett crank, to rebuild this engine we would need another one of these very special de-stroked cranks or else everything in the engine almost would need to be replaced, the wait on a new crank was going to be a year. I found a company the that would turn down the flywheel hub on the crank and build it back with 4130 weld then machine the glob down to an exact copy, the customer elected to do this, cost like $650.00 and I had my doubts, but the work was flawless and three years later the engine is still doing fine, with enough money anything can be fixed.

DrEntropy
11-07-2006, 07:46 AM
Hap wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
I found a company the that would turn down the flywheel hub on the crank and build it back with 4130 weld then machine the glob down to an exact copy, the customer elected to do this, cost like $650.00 and I had my doubts, but the work was flawless and three years later the engine is still doing fine, with enough money anything can be fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your skepticism would be well-founded IMO. You must have found *the* machine shop with metallurgists running the equipment. Impressive/amazing.

Hap Waldrop
11-07-2006, 09:25 AM
Well as it turns out and this should be of some interest to you Dr. being a Pinto racer, Some roundy-roundy 2300 Ford engine builders were taking some sort of Toyota crankshaft and fitting it into the 2300 to make a stroker out of it, and part of the process was getting rid of the flywheel hub as mentioned in the repair above and making it to fit the 2300 flywheel. So fortunately for me even though this was the first time they had did this on a 1275, they had did this on the 2300/Toyota hybrid crank many, many times, so atleast we were not treading into totally uncharted waters. It could blow all to bits tommorow but so far, three seasons of racing a 8000+ and all is good.

Hap Waldrop
11-07-2006, 09:40 AM
I've got another wild repair story, this one is about a racing cylinder head. I have this customer who a races 948 Bugeye. Nicest guy you ever want to meet, but when things go wrong, he's alittle slow to hit the ole kill switch. Couple years ago, he dropped a valve and, we think he overevved the motor and tagged one and bent it and this is how this all began, this is about 16 to 1 948, so things can get over friendly it you over rev. He drove the thing around the track for like two laps, we would cringe when he came by, you should have heard the noises coming from this little beast, heart wrenching to say the least. Anyway we we got the head off one combustion chamber was completly pulverized, both valves completely gone through holes on the piston, there was not one area of the combustion cahnmber or bowl are that didn't look like you had taken a hammer and punch to it, I had never saw anything this badly destroyed, the seat were beat right out of the head. It was an old Comptune head and this fella isn't known for throwing anything away. he had used a cast iron head repair shop before for simple cracks and they had done a great job but expensive, he sent the head to these guys, I thought to myself my buddy had finally lost his mind, $950!!! later the head came back and it was beyond amazing, these guys basiclly re-crated an new combustion chamber from scratch. Now I can't say it was money well spent, well maybe if it was a Bugattii head, but there again it just proves anything can be fixed for a price /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

WhatsThatNoise
11-07-2006, 06:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Is your Fidanza flywheel for a B-series engine? If so, 3 or 5 main.

[/ QUOTE ]
So far as I know there are 3 types for the MGA-B (All "B" series engines)

1500-1600-1622 (All 3 main MGA 57-61) use the 6 bolts only (no locating pins) for flywheel to crank.
Also 6 clutch cover bolts w/ 2 locating pins.
This flywheel weighs 29 lbs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
This pressure plate is a bit thicker than the later one which is.......

1800 (3 main MGB 62-64) same as above except use 3 locating pins for the clutch cover plate (pressure plate) & use the "MGB" looking thin one w/ "fingers" rather than springs.
This one weighs 21 lbs (I think?)

1800 (5 main MGB 65-?) 6 bolts & 2 pins for the crank/flywheel bolts & 6 bolts/3 pins for the clutch.
This one weighs 21 also (I think?)

Now for the set up I have........I have a 1622 (MkII MGA engine) with the early style 1800 flywheel........So I can use the heavy duty MGB pressure plate on a MGA.
Moss # 190-810 Borg & Beck

In order to use my "early B" Fidanza, I had to also change to a 23 spline first motion shaft, a early MGB throw out bearing & clutch fork.

I think there is some time in there where MGB's flywheel dia. changed.
Me thinks w/ the start of the 5 main???

BTW.....The bolt circle dia. of the standard MGA-B clutch cover plate loooks like 9 7/8".
What is a Tilton?...........7 1/4" like Fidanza?

Hap Waldrop
11-07-2006, 10:18 PM
The first of the 5 main MGB enginnes were the same size as the three main engines however the crank hubs are different and the flywheel mount differently, some have register on the flywheel and some are flat mount directly to the crank hub with no register. Then in 1968 when they switched to the 4 syncro tranny the flywheel got bigger in diameter and the engine backing plate changed for the new tranny and the different starter location. What transmission are you using 3 or 4 syncro?

WhatsThatNoise
11-08-2006, 06:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What transmission are you using 3 or 4 syncro?

[/ QUOTE ]3 syncro box w/ a straight cut close ratio gear set.

The late style one w/ the rear mainshaft bearing & real front seal.

Had to grind the bell-housing just a tad for the newer style pressure plate.

It all went together fine except for having a lot of end float on 3rd.
Had to have a custom (thicker) interlocking ring made. (Moss 461-540)
WOW $$$ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Hap Waldrop
11-08-2006, 11:58 AM
Well if you are running a early 1800 MGB Fidanza aluminum flywheel part#126991 63-67, then I have a 7.25" (Tilton/quartermaster clutch bolt pattern) version of this Fidanza aluminum flywheel, you may want to buy, it's the last of overstock stuff I have, and when you find out what I want for it, you'll wee on yourself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Email me if you are interested, it's way cheap man and brand new and in the box. Fidanza requires a minumum buy of about 12 units now to get a production run going, so needless to say, no one is going to waste that kind of money to make anymore.

WhatsThatNoise
11-08-2006, 07:44 PM
Don't think I need a Tilton......

Could probably lift the front wheels, on launch, w/ stickier tyres & have no problems chirping 3rd. as it is.

Also......Don't know if I can stand any more drive line vibration.
(The Tiltons don't have those little springy-things on the disk)

The Tilton would probably be too heavy and "off & on" for street use.

Talked w/ Prather.......He runs a heavy duty Borg-Beck and is 5 time national SCCA champ in his MGA.

But I do know a guy who would like it.....
http://www.fast-mg.com/Pricelist.htm

Hap Waldrop
11-09-2006, 07:07 AM
Yeah I'll agee if you drive it on the street, a Tilton is not the way to go, but for the track a Tilton clutch is hard to beat, it offers a much better feel, I've never felt a vibration due to it and it will never, ever slip. I suprised that Kent runs a B&B on the MGA, Craig Chima on the other hand ran a light weight (8.5 pound) steel billet flywheel and a tilton single 7.25" clutch on his championship Elva, we bought it from him and it is now on the Huffaker MGB, it's mated to a Quaife Rocket 4 speed dog box with a Tilton hydraulic throw out bearing, very cool stuff. I believe Kent runs a Saenz gearbox. The Bill Blust MGB built by Rick Haynes and Craig Chima runs the new Staff dog gearbox, it's kinda like our Taylor Midget boxes and uses Webster/Hewland gear sets, so almost any ratios are possible.

WhatsThatNoise
11-09-2006, 07:49 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm suprised that Kent runs a B&B on the MGA

[/ QUOTE ]
My bad......Kent runs a Tilton/Saenz dog ring. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

He has a welded differential.....
(Thats the thing I thought was odd)

Wrote everything he told me down so I could kinda copy.

As much as the restrictive vintage rules allow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

What ever happened to Craig Chima's Elva?

Hap Waldrop
11-09-2006, 10:24 AM
Craig's Elva now belongs to Bill Blust in Colorado, Bill has quite the collection of race cars. He recently commisioned a handbuilt aluminum bodied TR3 to be built in England, it made all the magazines over there, no telling what it cost it was built from a clean sheet of paper, he showed me pictures of it and UK magazines with it in them while I was in Topeka at the runoffs, unfreaking real is all I can say, I'm sure before it over it will surface in mags here and everyone will get to see it. Bill is a British car nut, who know how to spend his money. He has a couple of Huffaker Midgets as well, and the Haynes/Chima MGB that was built last year, that thing is a work of art as well.

I've known a lot of guys who don't like LSDs, I driven MGBs with Detriot lockers, Midgets with Quaifes and TranExs and can't honestly tell the difference and my lap times didn't change either, so being the budget driver ( compared to some folks I know /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) I am, I also use welded rear ends, beside trying to push the car by myslef thay have always served me well, I'm sure that's why Kent has stuck with them as well. Kent knows where to spend his money and where not to.