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vping
07-15-2006, 07:12 AM
Suggestions were made that I should switch over to a Pertronix (sp) as my car is still running a bit off.

Fill me in if you could.

Paul Slice
07-15-2006, 07:29 AM
Pros:
no points to adjust
no condenser to go bad
not as sensitive to worn dizzy shafts
rock steady timing
install and forget
easier starting

Cons:
if it fails you call a tow truck
cost more than a tune up kit


that being said, I have Ignitors on my 3 British cars and have had no problems but I still carry the points and related items in the glove box just in case.
I highly recomend the Ignitor.


Paul

wkilleffer
07-15-2006, 07:30 AM
Check out the website www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets. (http://www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets.) They have alot of good Pertronix stuff, and some of the best deals on it that I've ever seen.

What you'll want to do is to make sure there's nothing wrong with your distributor. Make sure the weights and springs are free, that the vacuum advance works, and that the shaft is tight and doesn't wobble. Check your points and condensor to make sure they're set up correctly and not worn out.

My belief is that you should try to get your car running correctly with points if possible before switching to electronic ignition. If something else is wrong, electronic ignition might not solve it, and it might not work at all.

The Pertronix Ignitor is a small Hall Effect trigger unit that fits in the dizzy where the points and condensor used to fit. Installation's supposed to be easy, and it only requires that two wires be plugged in. Buying their coil is supposed to help with the unit's longevity, but it will work with a basic Lucas coil.

The advantages are that your car retains its original appearance, the installation is easy, and you no longer have to worry about whether or not you points are out of whack.

The disadvantage that I can think of is that an electronic unit can fail without warning. This doesn't mean that they're trouble-prone, but electronics can go wrong. These units are supposed to give years of trouble-free service, but stuff happens sometimes.

My 25D4 distributor is about to bite the dust and is causing some other problems with the car, like not being able to tune the carbs properly. I've ordered a Pertronix Flame Thrower distributor and the Flame Thrower coil. The dizzy uses a more robust Lucas 45D4 distributor with the Ignitor pre-installed. Just drop in, hook up, set the timing, and you're away. At least, that's what I'm hoping for. It should arrive early next week.

To make a long story short, a Pertronix is supposed to be a good way to make your car more dependable.

tony barnhill
07-15-2006, 10:19 AM
I prefer the Crane unit.

vping
07-15-2006, 12:18 PM
Link does not work.

Steve_S
07-15-2006, 12:22 PM
The only car in our caravan of T-Series MGs that didn't make it the first 1,200 miles from So Cal to Oregon was the one with a Petronics installed. It failed suddenly and without warning and the car went home on a trailer after completing only 75 miles. If you install one of these units, be prepared to completely replace it if something goes wrong. Points usually give lots of warning if something is amiss but electronic ignition will not be so kind. Petronics are supposed to be pretty reliable but they are sensitive to power and can be fried fairly easily. I've thought about getting one on many occasions but I just can't think of a reason to since points have been so good to me. I replace the points, condensor and rotor arm once every few years in each car for a few bucks so it's hard to spend nearly $100 on something that does basically the same job. But if I were to go with electronic ignition, Petronics Ignitor would be the one I would choose for it's nearly original appearence and ease of installation.

SilentUnicorn
07-15-2006, 02:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Link does not work.

[/ QUOTE ]

remove the period from the end of the addy

mark

Keoke
07-15-2006, 03:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I prefer the Crane unit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats ok Tony, but it is just a complicated piece of junk IMOP---Keoke

Keoke
07-15-2006, 03:08 PM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif
Cons: if it fails you call a tow truck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonono.gif Just reinstall the points and drive home.

Costs more than a tune up kit: not if you add up all the tune up kits you will buy over the life of a Pertronix. ---Keoke-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

Steve_S
07-15-2006, 04:07 PM
I'm not convinced a Petronix will outlast enough tune-up kits to make up for the price. I can tune up my car for 10-15 years before I've paid off a Petronix. That doesn't mean it's a bad piece, just that I would never buy one for economical reasons.

GB1
07-15-2006, 04:18 PM
Keep your points in the glove box!!!!!

tony barnhill
07-15-2006, 04:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Thats ok Tony, but it is just a complicated piece of junk IMOP---Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, that's what I think of the Petronix! I'm going on 13 years on a Crane right now with no problems!

Tom_Fisher
07-15-2006, 04:27 PM
There are no cons in my book. I installed a PerTronix unit in my 69 MGB over three years ago and have never looked back. Nary a problem.

ccougill
07-15-2006, 07:19 PM
I'm running a Crane also and have had no problems with it. I also have a brand new spare unit I got a deal on in the boot. I really don't completely trust any aftermarket electronic ignition 500 miles from home. If you go to petronix get their coil also, seems to work better

wkilleffer
07-15-2006, 09:00 PM
I went with the Pertronix because the installation looked easier and everything is contained inside the distributor. The Crane looks like it might be a more sophisticated unit. Personal preference was a big factor in deciding which unit to buy.

Retro Rockets sent me an email to tell me that they weren't going to be able to ship the new dizzy until closer to the end of the month as they're out of stock. It's worth the wait to me.

vping
07-15-2006, 09:16 PM
Looks like I still need to listen to other but I have some homework to do.

Bret
07-15-2006, 09:35 PM
When I had a points car (67 Barracuda) I was changing or cleaning & setting them every 6 months or so. But today Iíve owned my 78 B for almost 8 years and have had zero problems with it in that time. Other than some unrelated issues and general tune-ups Iíve never removed my rotor cap.

In my case I already had the CEI dizzy setup with the external module that was going bad one me. Anyway to replace the module costs the same as two of Pertronix kits. So in my eyes those of us with the later CDI 45DEís that they are a lot cheaper than the alternative. Especially so if you need to retain the original dizzy setup for emissions issues like here Kalifornia.

Pros: Solid timing checked it frequently but never had to adjust or had any problems. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Cons: If you like replacing & setting the points you won't like it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

swift6
07-15-2006, 10:29 PM
I've been running a Pertronix in my TR6 going on 9 years now. MY TR8 has had a Crane since the original Lucas unit failed nearly twenty years ago. I have had zero problems with either. To be honest though, the Pertronix sytems seem to gather more negative reviews than positive ones even though I have not personally experienced any.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

Keoke
07-16-2006, 01:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like I still need to listen to other but I have some homework to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

OH! Like what?---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Keoke
07-16-2006, 01:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not convinced a Petronix will outlast enough tune-up kits to make up for the price. I can tune up my car for 10-15 years before I've paid off a Petronix. That doesn't mean it's a bad piece, just that I would never buy one for economical reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Steve, Economy and reliability go hand in hand.Further there is no electromechanical device that will exceed the reliability of its electronic counter part.Also give this thought some consideration:The precurser to each electrical failure is a mechanical one.The simplist example here being an insulation failure on a wire resulting in an electrical short.----Keoke

Keoke
07-16-2006, 01:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I've been running a Pertronix in my TR6 going on 9 years now. MY TR8 has had a Crane since the original Lucas unit failed nearly twenty years ago. I have had zero problems with either. To be honest though, the Pertronix sytems seem to gather more negative reviews than positive ones even though I have not personally experienced any.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Swift 6, thats because most of the negative positions heard are based on Chinese Whispers and not that individuals personal experience.---Keoke

Steve_S
07-16-2006, 01:52 AM
"there is no electromechanical device that will exceed the reliability of its electronic counter part."

This is assuming the entire system is designed to protect the electronic part. Placing a Petronix module in place of points in a 40-year-old car's electrical system does not guarantee it will last to the end of the block! There are not only possible manufacturing defects, but many other variables that can lead to a fried electronic component.

I feel the Petronix is a good piece of equipment, but a properly maintained stock system is also quite good and offers the advantage of advance warning if anything is amiss in most situations. In the past ten years I have replaced two sets of points as mere preventative maintenance and can only remember adjusting points once or twice in the past few years.

So it costs me about $2 per year to run points as opposed to between $75 and $500 for an electronic ignition that will last an unknown amount of time, usually 5-8 years barring a power issue blowing the thing up!

Keoke
07-16-2006, 02:01 AM
I guess you are running one of those old computers too with the air bearing memory drums. P.S. we made no assunptions.---Keoke-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jsneddon
07-16-2006, 02:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I guess you are running one of those old computers too with the air bearing memory drums. P.S. we made no assunptions.---Keoke-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

PUNCH CARDS BABY!!!! I don't trust bits I can't see and hold in my hand !!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

AND I say points. You turn on the key, you open the points with the handle of a screwdriver, you see a spark, you know it is working.

You crazy kids with your new-fangled hall-effect sensors.

How many times have I been stranded with points? Once in 25 years

Was I really stranded? Nope - I rigged up a duct-tape bushing for the plastic one that wore through and grounded out.

And I happen to enjoy tinkering with points as part of the tune-up.... It looks very complicated and impresses the ladies /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


But seriously.... If you think that a petronix is the magical ignition pill that will make a crappy runner run better.... depending on what is ACTUALLY wrong it might or it might not..... If it is running well with points then it will run well with the petronix.... but when you install it on your car don't expect to fire it up and go peeling down the street thinking to yourself "Holy Crikies this thing really was worth the money !!!!"

But I'm a cheap Scot who loves crotchety mechanical stuff.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

Keoke
07-16-2006, 03:23 AM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif-JS
You know I got a few of them scotish friends and they always comparing the price of progress to that of a bottle of scotch.---Keoke--- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Steve_S
07-16-2006, 03:25 AM
I used to love playing with punch cards when I was a kid. I kinda enjoy playing with points, too. Unfortunately they practically never need adjustment! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Actually Jim has a good point (pun intended?). Your ignition system should be in perfect working order with the stock parts BEFORE installing Petronix. Putting an electronic ignition into a poorly running car is like putting a band-aid on a flesh wound.

WhatsThatNoise
07-16-2006, 03:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]

My belief is that you should try to get your car running correctly with points if possible before switching to electronic ignition. If something else is wrong, electronic ignition might not solve it, and it might not work at all.


[/ QUOTE ] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif

Keoke
07-16-2006, 03:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I used to love playing with punch cards when I was a kid. I kinda enjoy playing with points, too. Unfortunately they practically never need adjustment! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Actually Jim has a good point (pun intended?). Your ignition system should be in perfect working order with the stock parts BEFORE installing Petronix. Putting an electronic ignition into a poorly running car is like putting a band-aid on a flesh wound.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betcha it will stop the bleeding .Still no assumption made.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Keoke
07-16-2006, 03:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My belief is that you should try to get your car running correctly with points if possible before switching to electronic ignition. If something else is wrong, electronic ignition might not solve it, and it might not work at all.


[/ QUOTE ] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

---WTN:

Its that "if Possible" that is the stiff letter in a poor man's pocket book.However, eliminating one problem source positively allows you to locate the others that may be out of sorts.You surely can't do it with a questionable ignition system.---Keoke

PAUL161
07-16-2006, 06:50 AM
I know this story is not about an MG but you might find it interesting,for some reason? A few years back I had a 1984 Jeep CJ7 that had electronic ingition. I used to do research on ancient Indian ruins in the west and that took me in areas that was sometimes 70 to 80 miles from civilization. While out about 60 miles one time the electronic ignition took a dive and there I was with a broke Jeep, a cell phone that didn't work, and miles from nowhere. Fortunally a fellow came by later that day and towed me to his place where I got the Jeep fixed by using an old junk distributer with points. From that point on, a rebuilt distributor, WITH POINTS, was put in and I drove it for another 8 years. I always carried a spare set of points and condenser with me, but never had to use them. Set up properly, points will last a very long time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif PJ

aeronca65t
07-16-2006, 07:17 AM
I've been racing with the Pertronix for about 4 years...no problems.

The Crane unit seems to be good too, but more expensive and with more bits.

Two comments: If the Pertronix unit is installed, it's *very* easy to allow the red lead wire to brush against the points cam (and eventually rubbing off the insulation). Watch the routing of this wire.

Second: I set mine up contrary to the installation setup (to keep things simple). In my car the coil is *always* powered through the ballast resistor (even when cranking). Technically, this means it gets a weaker spark during cranking, but my race car starts fine. Running the ballast resistor 100% *may* also act as an electrical shock absorber, reducing any voltage spike, and protecting the Pertronix unit better.

I still bring along an old points distributor, just in case (it's the mechanical engineeer in me, I guess)....haven't needed it though.

Bret
07-16-2006, 12:39 PM
Iíd agree that the Pertronix isnít going to fix a sick engine in most cases.

However in my case as I mentioned in my previous post I was running the stock 45DE4 CEI (Electronic Ignition) I was having some misfires at high RPMs. Did everything I could think of to address the issue and as I slowly knocked the unusual suspects off the hit list I began to suspect the dizzy was the problem. So after going over everything else I pulled the dizzy to inspect it Ė but with an EI dizzy about the only thing you can do is check for slop and if the vacuum advance is working properly. Other than that you either need to replace the dizzy with another expensive unit and/or replace the mysterious CEI module at about ~ $300 itself.

Frustrated Ė I started researching options. Reading about the Pertronix kit I decided to give it a shot considering it was a mere $100 bucks and the other options prices seemed prohibitive especially considering I was guessing at what the problem was.

Results? As stated Iíve been running the Pertronix for almost 8 years now without any problems at all and the timing has remained rock steady. Revs to redline without any problem and honestly sounds as if it could keep going. Something not possible before.

IMHO the Pertronix is well worth the money. Just make sure you know exactly what Dizzy you have before you order.

tony barnhill
07-16-2006, 03:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The Crane unit seems to be good too, but more expensive and with more bits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, I've found the Petronix to be the more expensive (& I get deep discounts from Moss!) - the Crane works fine with my Lucas Sports Coil...the Petronix really wants its own coil.

Nunyas
07-16-2006, 03:21 PM
I havea Crane XR700 in my B. The POs had it installed. It seems to work well for me. It worked well with the Lucas Sports Coil too, before corrosion of the coil's contacts caught up with me. Now I have a nice yellow Accel coil in there. Still working good.

I've been thinking about swapping out for a dual spark ignition system, like the Pertronix Second Strike system. However, that idea is on hold for a while, because I want to get other things squared away first.

tony barnhill
07-16-2006, 03:30 PM
I think this is one of those "you'll have to decide which you prefer" topics....each of us has our favorite for whatever reasons....kinda like, I like Mikuni carbs but don't like Webers.

jsneddon
07-16-2006, 03:44 PM
or the ever popular Silcone vs LMA brake fluid debate....

Steve_S
07-16-2006, 03:51 PM
You don't have to use the Pertronix coil, but it is a very high quality unit and not just a gimmick. Pertronix units require a coil resistance of at LEAST 1.5 ohms. Lucas Sports coils are within the specified range of a Pertronix module and offer the same overall voltage of 40,000v. Lucas Sports coils are perfectly suited to a Pertronix and are one way to retain the illusion of originality in an MG (even though sports coils aren't completely original!).

It is indeed personal preference, but I still strongly suggest getting all systems in a vehicle's electrical system running perfectly BEFORE changing components. Putting an electronic ignition into a poorly running system can cover up other problems and give the illusion of a magic cure. This situation may cause damage to the electronic ignition or to other components in the automobile. Make sure the proper voltage is supplied to the EI at all times (and all RPMS) to avoid damage to the circuits, and if your EI does not automatically shut down then be sure there is not a continual feed of power to the unit after the vehicle is shut down.

Keoke
07-16-2006, 04:22 PM
Yep Steve, "The Pertronix Wants its Own Coil"--More Chinese Whispers.---Keoke

LLAngus
07-16-2006, 04:43 PM
I have a Crane and love it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

Bret
07-16-2006, 05:13 PM
The Coil issue brings up an important issue. If your vehicle has a ballast resistor and you select a performance 3.0ohm coil without bypassing the resistor you could be inducing problems. Likewise if you require a 3.0ohm coil (no ballast resistor) you will have problems if you install a 1.5ohm coil. But I donít recall reading anything about the Pertronix requiring itís coil only that it should follow the guidelines above. I.e. 3.0ohm no ballast resistor, 1.5ohm for ballast resistor setups only.

The Pertronix kit doesnít really mention this but it only makes sense that a pointís setup might be more forgiving to intermittent voltage spikes & transients than the solid state electronic ignition setup. I wonder if this situation might be the cause of some of the reported Pertronix kitís problems & failures.

Seems to me that the failures of this type of circuit design could likewise be caused by improper installation (not reading the directions), poor grounding, spark plug gaping as well as circuits neglected and/or ravaged by time.

I think most of us will agree that there is no magic bullet fix-all for a dilapidated & rundown vehicle.

Keoke
07-16-2006, 05:41 PM
Bret, while I basically agree with the concept ,go back and read Aronica"s post using the Pertronix very interesting indeed.---Keoke

Basil
07-16-2006, 10:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I guess you are running one of those old computers too with the air bearing memory drums. P.S. we made no assunptions.---Keoke-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You could be talking about the computer I used to work on, the IBM Q-7 (NORAD SAGE System).

http://www.britishcarforum.com/temp/sage/B_Computer.jpg
Maintenance Console (If this seems familiar its because when the Air Force finally upgraded their Air Defense system, Hollywood bought a bunch of the hardware for use in movies). And here is one of those air bearing drums you spoke of:
http://www.britishcarforum.com/temp/sage/Drum_1.jpg
Magnetic Storage Drum (One of 24 in the system)

One of the Magnetic Core memory systems:
http://www.britishcarforum.com/temp/sage/Lil_Mem.jpg

Now back to our regular program: For what it's worth, which isn't much, I prefer points on my old British cars. Better? I don't really care, but that's just me. To each his own.

Basil /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

Steve_S
07-16-2006, 11:43 PM
I think the majority of EI failures in MGs are due to old, neglected or faulty electrics. People buy the EI unit thinking it will cure all their problems and for a while it does. But electronics don't do well in an stressful environment such as corroded grounds, varying voltage and vibration. Modern cars do not have nearly as many problems with EI systems as older cars despite the same technology being used in the modules themselves. So by process of elimination I believe it's safe to assume that the people buying these kits are the ones killing them by ignoring the reason they wanted to buy it to begin with.

That said, I still prefer my good 'ol trusty points. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Keoke
07-17-2006, 02:24 AM
Yep Basil, and it sure took the AF along time to realize they needed an upgrade because what they were runing was pure junk. The German Government took one look at our MPS 33 System and snapped it up. Kinny like runing points when there are better options me think---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Steve_S
07-17-2006, 03:22 AM
Then again, the hubble telescope uses a 286 processor because it's proven and reliable. There are "better" computers to control it but they aren't as trustworthy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Keoke
07-17-2006, 04:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Then again, the hubble telescope uses a 286 processor because it's proven and reliable. There are "better" computers to control it but they aren't as trustworthy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

CUZ : They can;t afford noting else.They in $$$$ trouble now.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

piman
07-17-2006, 06:50 AM
Hello Vping,

personally I stick with points, but William's point is spot on, do not think that it is a cure all for an existing fault. I echo what he said, find out the cause of the poor running first then think about a change. You may then feel that the need has disappeared?

Alec

capitalcitycars
07-17-2006, 10:16 AM
I prefer points. During a breakdown, I can change them and go. They are also cheaper. My 2cents.

vping
07-17-2006, 10:46 AM
In terms of getting it to run better I still need to figure this out. What I have done is this;

Static timing set to 10ļ - If this is a starting point, what else do I need to do to tweak. Little wheel thingy on side of dizzy?

Plugs - Plenty of debate on type & gap. Are plain old Autozone plugs OK? I only got these in the beginning just to see if she would run. Now that she is I want the best I can get.

Cap, rotor, points, & condenser - All replaced but part of the current debate.

Distributor - How can I check for wear?

Wires - Nice yellow ones! Still need to change. What is recommended? There is some concern that 1 & 2 are reversed but car ran horrible when switched to what was thought to be correct. (DPO) I still need to investigate.

Coil - Lucas Sport I believe and it came with the car. I assume that it is OK.

Generator - Putting out what is should.

Valves - I have only adjusted once and I have run the car a total of maybe 2 hours plus about 80 miles. They are clacking something fierce after it is warm. Should I re-adjust warm and should I start here?

I think this covers it.

I'd prefer to keep her as stock as possible. The Pertronix lends itself to that but I like the option of control with having the points so I am not convinced that EI is the answer.

If the Q's above can be answered, I want to rule out as much as I can first then make a big change if I need to.

Where do I begin? Keep in mind we have covered this before but to find if she can run and now I want to re-fine everything. She is running and I can drive her, but it's off, and she deserves better.

jsneddon
07-17-2006, 10:58 AM
get up to 25~30 mph and drop it into 4th and mash down the loud pedal. If it bogs, advance it. If it pings, retard it a hair. The goal is to have it advanced right up to the point to where if you advance it any more it starts pinging.

tony barnhill
07-17-2006, 11:02 AM
& - though auto electrics isn't my strongpoint - I like NGK plugs.

I think it came originally with Champion N9Y plugs.

sparkydave
07-17-2006, 11:14 AM
I used the Pertronix since the stock electronic ignition died, so my car never had points to begin with. I have heard that as long as you don't leave the ignition on for long periods with the engine not running they hold up well. I used it with the stock coil and ballast resistor, and it runs fine for me.

John Loftus
07-17-2006, 11:16 AM
I think it's interesting that Peter and Anne Hunt drove their BT7 with a standard distributor in the Around the World Rally ... 20,000 mile without touching the points. No adjusting, no changing the timing, no fiddling. They said they replaced the points as a matter of course at 25K. Of course, they started with a rebuilt distributor.

Timing - Get a hold of timing light (perferably an adjustable model) and check your timing against factory specs at slow idle and full advance.

Distributor wear - Remove the rotor, grab the shaft in that area and see if you can rock the shaft back and forth at all. Any perceptible movement and you have bearing and shaft wear. What's harder to check without a teardown is wear in the cam springs, posts, etc.

Here's a paste of a lengthy post from Chris Dimmock with his opinions on distributor wear and thoughts on Petronix and similar systems.


---------------



Hi all,

I apologise up front - this is a long and reasonably detailed post. Tried to
post it last night - but it didn't go through.

If you believe that a Pertronix ignitor fixes "everything" relating to wear in
a 35- 50 year old distributor - and want to keep believing that - then delete
this post now - and may you forever remain in Lucas darkness.

This post is about why it is important "WHEN" the spark gets fired (rather
than just 'what' fires the spark) - and is an attempt to explain what problems
an electronic ignition (Pertronix, Lumenition etc) or a dual points
distributor will cure - and the problems they CAN'T cure - and how to cure
those problems. With all the recent posts - I thought documenting this would
help.

Firstly - I'm not anti -Pertronix or anti-electronic ignition - I just want
to explain what I have discovered myself over the past year or so - and
demystify some of this stuff.

Pertronix part number for a positive earth Pertronix for a BJ8 Lucas 25D
distributor is LU 162AP12 - I bought a Pertronix from Aaron Couper at
coupers-cars.com (in the USA) about this time last year:

http://www.coupers-cars.com/Catalog%20Templates/Pertronix%20Units_products.ht
m

It was $US70 plus freight & taxes No commercial interest yaddah yaddah - best
price I could find - and Aaron is a Kiwi (like Mike Salter!) - so he's a good
bloke!.

But before you rush out and buy one - think about this - what problem are you
trying to solve?

Most people buy a Pertronix - and spend their $US70 plus freight (or more) -
basically to compensate for the fact that their 35 - 50 year old distributor
is worn out. Your distributor shaft bearings, shaft, distributor cam etc are
worn - and so the shaft wobbles. The distributor runs at half engine rpm -
you'd expect its bearings to be worn out after 35- 50 years of driving!.

So why not fix the distributor?

By fitting a Pertronix - you eliminate the mechanical actuation of the
mechanical points (and the condensor) - and replace them with a very accurate
electronic 'switch'. The wobbly mechanical shaft now doesn't mechanically open
and close the points - and you don't have to maintain the points. That's one
problem solved - 'how' the spark is fired.

But - what determines WHEN that spark gets fired?. Its your advance curve -
determined by two weights, pivoting on posts, retained by 2 springs - which
spin in and out at different RPMs - and a cam and post which limit the
movement to a 'maximum' advance. How does the wobbly old worn shaft/ bearings/
Cam/ springs and worn spring posts in the distributor decide WHEN to fire the
spark? The same way that it did before you fitted the Pertronix - by just
wobbling around!. You haven't fixed that problem!

So what are the advantage of fitting a Pertronics inside your Lucas
distributor - or fitting a modern twin point distributor instead of your
Lucas?:

1. a pertronix removes shaft/cam wear as a SPARK IGNITION consistency factor
- by changing HOW the spark is fired - by changing from mechanical actuation
of mechanical points, to optical . But it doesn't remove the shaft/cam wear -
or post/pivot wear, lack of spring tension etc - which affects WHEN the spark
is fired - i.e. the advance curve itself. The Mallory twin point - being brand
new - isn't worn - so it also solves the 'wear' problem.

2. you can't get points bounce with a Pertronix - as it is a hall effect
rather than mechanical points. A dual point eg Mallory distributor also cures
points bounce by halving the amount of work each set of points does. Both are
great to extend revs past say 6,400 rpm on a 6 cylinder engine, and past
7,500rpm on a 4 cylinder engine.

3. a pertronix is cheaper (at around $US70) than a full distributor rebuild
with a complete advance curve regraph (at around $US150 - or so) The Mallory
is dearer still - at around $US200 plus you still need to set the advance
curve of the Mallory to match your engine.

4. a much more consistent 15 KV is maintained at eg 6,000 rpm at the spark
plug - whereas points systems reduce KVA at higher rpm. Both Perrtronix and
dual point Mallory will provide this consistency.

A Pertronix DOESN'T address the effect that the wear in the distributor has
on the actual advance curve itself - i.e. the amount of advance an engine
requires at any particular revs. Your worn out old distributor decides that -
and we just ascertained that your motivation to put in a Pertronix was to
compensate for the worn out bearings/ cam/ shaft!!! But you've ignored the
springs, action plate posts, weights and the wear means you no longer have the
advance curve provided 35 - 50 years ago. And lets face it - if you don't have
a standard camshaft grind, and a standard compression ratio - and aren't
running 100 octane RON (NOT AKI - and not MON) leaded fuel (check in your
owners handbook!) - then that curve isn't correct anyway!.

The correct solution to 1. above - to solve BOTH issues - is the old fashioned
'rebuilding your distributor' method! Replace the worn out bearing/ worn
shaft/ action plate posts/pivots. Then regraph to suit your Healey engine.

Regarding 2 and 4. Is points points bbbounce actually a problem? I don't
believe it is with a road going 6 cyl big Healey with a standard crankshaft.
Points
bounce is only a problem on high revving cars - eg 4 cylinder racing sprites,
or Healey 3000's with Denis Welch's steel bottom end - which go regularly
past 7,000 rpm on the track, and get points bounce - which a Pertronics
solves. On a 6 cylinder engine you don't get points bounce with standard
points until around 6,200 - 6,400 rpm - at which time a standard crankshaft
cures the points bounce - by breaking......... Suffice to say - if you intend
to rev your 100/4 over 7,000 rpm - or your 6 cylinder healey over 6,500 rpm
regularly - then get a pertronix or a Mallory dual point.

Personally - on a BJ8 which sees 5,800 rpm regularly - a correctly set up
Lucas distributor is fine - remember - that was the same distributor which
Formula Juniors and Cooper S and Healeys used in International motorsport
during the 1960s!. Its just that todays ones are 35 - 40 years older and need
to be rebuilt!

I'm not knocking Pertronix - I'm keeping the one I have for a Sprite -
Pertronix solves the points bounce issue better than anything else, in a
standard appearance distributor. But it won't 'fix' your advance curve -
which is probably now way off due to the wear in posts / bearings / lack of
spring tension / worn bearings worn distributor cam - And it won't compensate
for the higher performance camshaft you fitted last rebuild. A rebuild , and a
regraph of your distributor to suit your engines specs, however, will.

In Summary -

- If you have a worn out old 80,000 mile old distributor, and change it to a
Pertronics/Lumenition/ electronic actuation system - your car will definitely
run better, and smoother than before you fitted the Pertronix. In fact - the
more worn out your old distributor is - the happier you'll be with the
Pertronix - hence all the positive postings.

- If you put a new (rebuilt to spec) points based Lucas distributor, with a
correct advance curve to suit the cam timing, compression ratio and the fuel
you run in your engine in 2003, into your car - and then tuned your car, reset
your carbs etc - you'll pick up noticeable seat of the pants bhp and get
better fuel economy, and the car will be smoother.

- If you put a new (rebuilt to spec) points based Lucas distributor, with a
correct advance curve etc in your car - drove it and got used to the
improvements - and then removed the points & condensor from your rebuilt
regraphed Lucas distributor - and fitted a pertronix - you would notice no
difference under 6,000 rpm There would be no measurable improvement. NONE. No
additional smoothness etc - no improvements at all - not until you were
revving past 6,000 rpm.

- If you have a worn out old 80,000 mile old distributor, with a Pertronics
fitted - and you got it rebuilt with a correct advance curve to suit the cam
timing, compression ratio and the fuel you run in your engine in 2003 - and
then tuned your car, reset your carbs etc - you'll probably pick up noticeable
bhp and get better fuel economy - and you would never have a points bounce
problem, and you would be able to continue making great BHP over 6,000rpm
(provided your engine was capable of it).

Getting the advance curve set to a sensible specification - for your engine
spec - and for your use of your Healey - and for the fuel you use - makes a
big difference. Ask anyone who has had their advance curve regraphed. If you
can't find someone 'local' to do this - Barry Campbell from the Austin Healey
Owners Club here in Sydney has done this for over 40 other healey people.
Barry has a large commercial Distributor analyser machine - which he has
converted to extremely accurate digital readouts (rather than swinging
needles).

And he understands advance curves and Healey engines - and has done heaps of
dyno and road testing.

And - aside from being a good bloke - Barry is retired and spends a
ridiculous, non commercial, amount of time doing this stuff. Did I mention
that Barry is fastidious ? : ) With the Australian peso - that makes
it pretty affordable (around $US100 - $US190 plus freight of approx $US25 -
depending on whats wrong, what model it is, and what parts/ machining is
required on your one - sometimes he has exchange or outright sale ones -
mostly BJ8 type) to get you distributor as close to 'perfect' as possible.

Barry built the distributor in my BJ8 (actually - he has built me a few -
we've tried several advance curves and done a lot of testing!)

The black & white car now has a 6 cylinder version of the no vacuum advance
Lucas 23D4 - a 23D6 - a Lucas mechanical advance only distributor. Totally
legal in all historic racing. The 23D4 is what the early/mid 1960's mini
cooper S had, and all the works Sprites/ Minis etc - with a fixed plate, no
Vacuum advance...)

So I now have one of the 'mythical' works type Lucas 23D6 distributors (as
fitted to the triple webered DHMCo prepared Sebring/ Lemans 3000's) in my BJ8
- with an advance curve tailored for my engine specs........... and no vacuum
advance. You see - you can't run a standard Healey/ Lucas Vacuum advance with
triple webers on a Healey - but that's another story... And if I ever got a
Dennis Welch steel bottom end - I'd put the Pertronix LU 162AP12 inside
it....

No commercial interest in any of this - yaddah yaddah - just passing on stuff
which may help others.

Best regards

Chris


______________________________________

Chris Dimmock
Sydney Australia

http://www.myaustinhealey.com

Keoke
07-17-2006, 11:20 AM
Piman, the premise here is you have a old worn Lucas dizzy.---Keoke

Keoke
07-17-2006, 11:36 AM
Well John, He pretty much agrees with what this up grade will do for relatively little cost.---Keoke

OH I forgot to mention that Peter & Ann Hunt were not runing Moss motors points they were NOS Lucas!.Makes a big difference you know.

Steve_S
07-17-2006, 01:25 PM
I use Champion N9YCC plugs, but NGK are also very good. If you aren't fouling plugs then whatever is in there now is fine. It's never a bad idea to replace the plug wires if you aren't sure of their internal condition. The gap you should run depends on your ignition system. With a Lucas Sports coil I would open the plug gap to .032 and see how it goes. Since you're having running problems, you can always start smaller if you like ( perhaps .028 ) but I wouldn't go wider than .034.

vping
07-17-2006, 01:34 PM
I have heard of the 4th gear trick to set timing. I have a Craftsman Timing light I just don't remember if it is adjustable.

I think my dizzy might have play. I will post a video of this.

One problem is setting idle RPM without a properly functioning tach. My tack is very bouncy. I think it is a Neg/Pos thing. I still have not looked at it although maybe this is a starting point and I can look at it tonight. I will post a video of this as well.

Keoke
07-17-2006, 01:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I use Champion N9YCC plugs, but NGK are also very good. If you aren't fouling plugs then whatever is in there now is fine. It's never a bad idea to replace the plug wires if you aren't sure of their internal condition. The gap you should run depends on your ignition system. With a Lucas Sports coil I would open the plug gap to .032 and see how it goes. Since you're having running problems, you can always start smaller if you like ( perhaps .028 ) but I wouldn't go wider than .034.

[/ QUOTE ]

AH Steve, go ahead and live a bit dangerously add another 0.001" to the gap we run that regularly with no problems,but then we also run Bosch Platinum plugs too and that may make a bit of differece here.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Keoke
07-17-2006, 02:01 PM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif

Viping one problem is trying to set the "idle RPM" without the benefit of a good timing lite and a hand held tach/dwell meter.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

vping
07-17-2006, 06:33 PM
Here is a picture of my Timing lite. It is adjustable.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/tn_7-17-06-LoosetachLucascoil005.jpg

Here is my Coil:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/tn_7-17-06-LoosetachLucascoil004.jpg

Here is a small video of my dizzy play or not. Let me know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY3uHIOdRGM

Keoke
07-17-2006, 06:49 PM
UPs, can not get the DIZZY play Picture, my plugin directory is momentarily screwed up send me a JPG in a PM-OK? or up load it to the forum---Keoke

kennypinkerton
07-17-2006, 07:00 PM
<threadjack> What is the adjustment on the timing light for? Mine does not have any adjustments.

John Loftus
07-17-2006, 07:10 PM
Vping,

That timing light should be fine and will let you adjust the timing at full advance which is the most important. The video you posted shows you rotating the shaft clockwise and counter-clock wise. This movement is normal and you are feeling the movement of the mechanical advance mechanism. What you should be checking for is how much deflection there is when you try to move the shaft side to side (towards the points/condenser/etc). If it is worn in this direction the shaft will wobble when it turns.

John Loftus
07-17-2006, 07:20 PM
Kenny,

The adjustable timing light shows you the timing when the pully notch and pointer are lined up. If you move the dial on the light back and forth, when the notch/pointer line up, that is what ignition timing is set on.

So in practice let's say you wanted to set maximum timing advance of 33 degress at 3500 rpm. Set the timing light to 35, bring the engine up to 3500 rpm and then turn the dizzy until the notch and pointer line up. Very simple and you don't need multiple marks on the pully to keep track of.

Cheers,
John

tony barnhill
07-17-2006, 07:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
one problem is trying to set the "idle RPM" without the benefit of a good timing lite

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I was always told Craftsman was a good timing light....Chinese laughter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

Keoke
07-17-2006, 07:34 PM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif Vping:
OK I got things all sorted out now.Well it seem to me that you are rotating the cam and that amount of rotation is what is to be expected and is not play in the DIZZY. If you have play wiggling the cam from side to side will cause the points to change their setting while setting on a lobe. Forget that.Start the engine and dial in the timinig on the lite at idle. Just use a low speed idle, if the timing mark jumps around a bit[ keep your mits off the knob] you have play in the DIZZY---Keoke

Keoke
07-17-2006, 07:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one problem is trying to set the "idle RPM" without the benefit of a good timing lite

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I was always told Craftsman was a good timing light....Chinese laughter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

OH they are ok Tony, the calibration marks on the dial are a bit wide thats all. I have their top of the line "lite" and the Snap On too they do not vary much more than say a 1/2 DEG apart.No Chinese Whispers---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

vping
07-17-2006, 07:51 PM
Dizzy play is not there. I just checked the side to side & it's OK.

Going to start her up & put on the timing light butt...Battery is under back seat. Where is an acceptable place to connect red & black?

Oh and #1 is the front, right?

Keoke
07-17-2006, 08:09 PM
Yep #1 plug is at the front. Can you get to the starter solenoid or horn circuit to connect the red?. The black can go any where on the body or engine.---Keoke

MGretired
07-17-2006, 08:10 PM
I've had a pertronixs in the B for 6 years and in the TD for 3 years...no problems! I carry a spare pertronixs in both cars in case they ever "give up the ghost", as I never want to go back to points. Had the TC going to GOF West had a spare Pertronixs (or even pionts & condesor) it would have been a 10 minute fix instaed of a tow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

Keoke
07-17-2006, 08:22 PM
--- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif Can't argue with that. I carry a spare, DIZZY all set up with a Pertronix. I can change the DIZZY faster than replacing a module or a set of points.---Keoke

sunkissedhealey
07-17-2006, 08:45 PM
It played alright.

Rob

vping
07-17-2006, 09:04 PM
I just got her up to temp & checked. It'still at 10ļ.

Should the metal tab on the rotor have any play? It has some in and out.

Keoke
07-17-2006, 09:55 PM
Yes it moves up & down---Keoke What does the timing light show when the two marks are lined up?. Are they steady while the engine idles??.

vping
07-17-2006, 10:07 PM
Not exactly. The idle varies very slighty so the timing moves a few degrees towards 15ļ. Maybe only as high as 13ļ

The Brass tab moved out as if it can move closer to the lugs on the inside of the cap. I guess this is OK?

Keoke
07-17-2006, 10:24 PM
NO!!!! it should not move stoP- now!!!---Keoke

-----Show me a picture of the rotor.

jlaird
07-17-2006, 10:28 PM
Thats not play thats lash in the gear train, nothing wrong with that me thinks. After all it only turns one way.

Keoke
07-17-2006, 10:41 PM
No Jack, if you rotate the rotor in the direction it will move and hold it there then suddenly release it, it should spring back to its original position,If it does not do this then the advance spring may be off its post,broken, stretched or they are reversed.---Keoke

vping
07-18-2006, 07:18 AM
OK bear with me on this. Pics are ehh but you should get the idea.

First is of current shiny rotor with 69 sprite fotor from mid seventies. Brass on screen from top to bottom is all the way up towards the top of the screen. Brass rivit that hold blade is not tight. Notice how the older rotor is held in by a melted rivet.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/tn_7-18-06-Rotorplay001.jpg

This the same shot with the brass pushed towards the bottom of the screen. There is about .013" play.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/tn_7-18-06-Rotorplay002.jpg

This next picture is from the side. I marked brass blade with red and have it pushed in.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/tn_7-18-06-Rotorplay003.jpg

Last pic is the same shot but with blade pulled out. You can see the exposed brass next to the red mark. Even thought blurry you can still make it out.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/tn_7-18-06-Rotorplay004.jpg

The older rotor has ZERO movement. I checked my 72 Midget rotor and there is also some play. Also all three dizzy's do not return the shaft if I rotate by hand. A little but not really springy.

jlaird
07-18-2006, 08:39 AM
Agree Keoke, what I was trying to say was this is ok, they all do it. Must assume that all else is ok.

Now concerning the roter, find a good one, inspect prior to buying, your autozone or such should have them.

Keoke
07-18-2006, 11:25 AM
OK Vping, while not desireable the rotor is safe for now.If you have some super glue handy put some in the void behind the brass contact and push it all the way back-Towards the top of the screen-. get a new one soon. With the engine Idling. line up the timing marks using the dial on the back of the timing light. Watch the alignment of the timing marks while the engine idles.If the mark on the damper jumps around there is wear in the DIZZY.---Fwiw--Keoke

vping
07-18-2006, 01:37 PM
I guess as long as I can maintain a constant idle that does not fluctuate, it can be high or low. I'll restart & let it warm up again and will try and get it to run smoothly. My guess would be that after it warmed up it should run consistant no matter how the idle is set. I will however make sure that the rotor is glued together and does not have that minimal play.

The dial on the back of the timing light, if I change it, the alignment of the marks change. What should I be looking to try and keep it at? I started off setting it to 10 and then looked at the marks and it only slightly varied. If I turn the dial up to 15 the mark on the damper moves clockwise. I'll try and do again tonight.

Also, just standing in garage, makes me pour sweat. Heat index today is 110ļ. That's advanced timing.

Keoke
07-18-2006, 08:23 PM
It seems to be doing what it is suppose to do, For this test just set the dial so that the timing marks line up. Do not change the dial any more. Watch the aligned marks using this dial setting with the timing light and see that the marks stay aligned.Very small deviations are OK.But if the mark on the damper moves forward and reverse significantly there is wear in the DIZZY.---Keoke

vping
07-18-2006, 08:29 PM
The change is only up towards 15 deg. As the idle drops the timing changes higher. It does not go below 10.

Keoke
07-19-2006, 12:30 AM
It should not go anywhere, it should remain fixed at what ever DEG Number the dial was set at to align the two timing marks.Line them up again and then do not touch that dial.If the timing mark on the vibration damper moves sporatically on its own you have a worn DIZZY.---Keoke

Questions: are there timing marks on your vibration damper???
Do you have a Vacuum advance hooked up???

vping
07-19-2006, 09:06 AM
I don't think I have a vacuum advance. It's a fairly stock '67.

There is a notch in the damper with chalk on it and there are 3 small pointers behind it which is how I was able to static to 10ļ.

Dave Russell
07-19-2006, 09:54 AM
"If the timing mark on the vibration damper moves sporatically on its own you have a worn DIZZY.---Keoke"
OR
The "fine print" in the timing light instructions cautions to use a resistor plug wire on the cylinder that you are taking the timing signal from. Using a solid wire can definitely cause erratic timing light readings.
D

vping
07-19-2006, 10:39 AM
Is pulling the dizzy difficult and by doing so, will it allow me to inspect for wear? If I can rule this out, it's one piece to the puzzle.

Odd thing is that at speed she is responsive & runs great. Only at low RPM, light waiting at a light, does it run rough.

Keoke
07-19-2006, 11:14 AM
HI Dave, none of mine say that and they work just fine.---Keoke

Keoke
07-19-2006, 11:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Is pulling the dizzy difficult and by doing so, will it allow me to inspect for wear? If I can rule this out, it's one piece to the puzzle.

Odd thing is that at speed she is responsive & runs great. Only at low RPM, light waiting at a light, does it run rough.

[/ QUOTE ]

No pulling the Dizzy is not difficult. However, checking for wear you need to know what to look for. Using the strobe[ Timing Light] is much easier and more accurate.

Poor performance at Idle can be attributed to wobble in a worn Dizzy.----Keoke

vping
07-19-2006, 11:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
...Poor performance at Idle can be attributed to wobble in a worn Dizzy.----Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess when I am at speed you can't notice it. Hmm OK.

Keoke
07-19-2006, 12:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...Poor performance at Idle can be attributed to wobble in a worn Dizzy.----Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess when I am at speed you can't notice it. Hmm OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep centrifical force introduces a constant error as apposed to the low speed wobble.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

jlaird
07-19-2006, 12:38 PM
Had not thought of that, good point.

Keoke
07-19-2006, 03:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Had not thought of that, good point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Jack, thats nuttin- sometimes I stop to think and forget to start again.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif

jlaird
07-19-2006, 03:29 PM
Ha, well that's why I am here, to learn.

Nunyas
07-19-2006, 04:43 PM
huh... I have the habit of stopping to think and then forgetting what I stopped to think about.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

startech47
07-19-2006, 05:06 PM
If the rotor button contact makes contact with the lugs in the cap fine brass dust can coat the surfaces and cause shorting and misfiring. This occured with a brand new rotor and cap back in the 60's. Tokk a while to figure this on out. A new rotor and all was right with the world again. Phil

vping
07-19-2006, 05:07 PM
I stop when I forget what I was thinking about and start to walk backwards.
Should look at the car tonight to see whats up.

Dave Russell
07-19-2006, 05:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]

HI Dave, none of mine say that and they work just fine.---Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]
Well good for you. You might find this interesting.
http://dragracingonline.com/technical/vii_10-lights-1.html
D /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yesnod.gif

Keoke
07-19-2006, 10:32 PM
Yeah Dave, thats interesting but thats all.Like I say mine work just fine and they like my Sears unit too.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Basil
07-19-2006, 10:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

HI Dave, none of mine say that and they work just fine.---Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]
Well good for you. You might find this interesting.
http://dragracingonline.com/technical/vii_10-lights-1.html
D /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yesnod.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the great link, Dave...great stuff. That's what I like about this hobby - there's always something to learn (for us mere mortals anyway) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Keoke
07-19-2006, 11:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

HI Dave, none of mine say that and they work just fine.---Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]
Well good for you. You might find this interesting.
http://dragracingonline.com/technical/vii_10-lights-1.html
D /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yesnod.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the great link, Dave...great stuff. That's what I like about this hobby - there's always something to learn (for us mere mortals anyway) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Basil, if you want one of those "older Model" Sears timing lights like mine I saw one being auctioned on E-bay just recently.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave Russell
07-20-2006, 12:11 AM
A further note:
My newer super digital timing light gives very erratic readings with solid core wire. I've noted that the instructions for this light & a couple of other newer "dial back" lights warn to use resistor plug wire.

I just happen to also have an old Sears #2134 as mentioned in the article. Even it gives more consistent operation when a resistor type wire is used.

This may be a moot point if timing is only being checked at idle. However, the really important timing number is the maximum advance achieved at the maximum advance rpm, vacuum advance disconnected. Most distributors are lucky to be within 5 degrees of spec on their maximum advance. This maximum should almost never exceed 32 to 38 degrees total advance, static plus centrifugal. To just set the timing at idle & hope that the centrifugal advance will not exceed this limit at higher rpm is like playing Russian Roulette.

A few degrees too much advance at high rpm can destroy an engine before you even know anything is wrong. A couple of degrees too little advance only reduces power a small percentage.
D

Keoke
07-20-2006, 12:35 AM
Yes that is true.Personally, I do not like the digital units.However, when setting the dizzy up I rarely do it on the car. There are a couple of shops here that have the old distributor testing machines and I use them. Checkered Flag even has one on display in their show room. I keep tellig them it would be better off in my shop---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

kennypinkerton
07-20-2006, 01:06 AM
How do the newer timing lights connect to get a reading? Mine has a clip that conects to the #1 plug, and allows the plug wire to be connected to it... the only other connections are the battery leads for power. I know there are ones with just a EM loop that clips over the #1 plug wire instead. Just curious what's the norm these days?

Keoke
07-20-2006, 02:00 AM
Hi Kenny, I have one of those old fellas too. However most of the more recent light designs utilise an inductive pickup[EM Loop] that clamps over the spark plug wire and snaps shut. The only other leads are those for power--Keoke

jlaird
07-20-2006, 08:36 AM
"really important timing number is the maximum advance achieved at the maximum advance rpm, vacuum advance disconnected"

Help me understand please. Why disconnect the vacume advance at advanced RPM if vacume is only available at low power settings. Will it not become a moot point.

Rob_Edwards
07-20-2006, 08:46 AM
At high rpm and no load, you're in a low power situation -- you can still have some vacuum. Best to take the vacuum advance out of the picture entirely, just to eliminate an unnecessary variable.

HTH!

Basil
07-20-2006, 09:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Well Basil, if you want one of those "older Model" Sears timing lights like mine I saw one being auctioned on E-bay just recently.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I already have one.

vping
07-20-2006, 10:33 AM
I don't think my dizzy has a vacuum does it? '67.

Keoke
07-20-2006, 02:24 PM
Hi Jack, no it may not be just a moot point.If there is a potential for some advance at low load due to the Vacuum advance unit then you certainly want it included when you are seting the maximum. Fwiw---Keoke

Dave Russell
07-20-2006, 03:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Hi Jack, no it may not be just a moot point.If there is a potential for some advance at low load due to the Vacuum advance unit then you certainly want it included when you are seting the maximum. Fwiw---Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand. If you set the advance at low load, which is the only way that you can set it, (short of running the engine under load on a chassis dyno) & you set the maximum advance with vacuum advance included, -- at high loads the advance will be severely retarded as the vacuum decreases. The maximum at high load & high rpm should not exceed around 35 degrees. At light loads, the maximum would be the 35 degrees plus 15 degrees of vacuum advance for a total of 50 degrees which is fine at low loads. The total advance retards back to 35 degrees as the load is increased. If you set it at 35 degrees with vacuum connected, It would retard to 20 degrees as the vacuum decreased at high loads, Not near enough advance.

I reiterate. Maximum advance, at 4,000 rpm & above, static plus centrifugal, no vacuum, should not exceed about 35 degrees. The vacuum advance only increases this 35 degrees at light engine loads & goes back to the original 35 degrees at higher engine loads. The centrifugal advance & the vacuum advance are two completely different things & should be checked & set independently. I hope we are just on different pages & really saying the same thing?
D

vping
07-20-2006, 08:14 PM
If I am looking at the cap, are the wires 4321 left to right? I cannot find this in Bentley or Haynes.
Plugs are also 4321 L to R.

vping
07-20-2006, 08:53 PM
Forget the wires.

How bad is this?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/tn_7-20-06-SparkPlugscompression002.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/tn_7-20-06-SparkPlugscompression010.jpg

I think you all know what this is.

tony barnhill
07-20-2006, 08:55 PM
The source of your running problems?

jsneddon
07-20-2006, 09:34 PM
regarding the wires...

there's an arrow on your rotor - it points in the direction of rotation. When the brass point is in the general direction of the #1 spark plug that is #1. Look at the cap and imagine which wire it will fire next as it rotates. That will be the one that fires #3.... then #4... then #2... then back to #1... That's the 1-3-4-2 firing order on your car. Sorry but I cant remember exacly how they line up on the top. But if you had your firing order set to 1234 I doubt you would get it running much at all.

Your plugs look nice and sooty. That means your carbs are running too rich. Clean up the plugs and then re-adjust the mixture on your car.

Remember... 95% percent of carb problems are ignition... so you're probably a 5 percenter now !!! Congrats!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

vping
07-20-2006, 09:41 PM
So having sporadic 0 - 110 psi in my #3 cyl is ok?

vping
07-20-2006, 09:49 PM
So having sporadic 0 - 110 psi in my #3 cyl is ok? That single soot plug is #3 and it's caked. These plugs might have 5 hrs running time & 80 driven miles. I know I had gas problems but I am worred about the compression.

Keoke
07-20-2006, 10:36 PM
Hi Dave ,low load in this case simply refers to the car at a cruising speed as apposed to low RPM Running thats all.Just include it all if its there I think that was clear.---Keoke

jsneddon
07-20-2006, 11:11 PM
I honestly didn't notice the numbers and didn't realize you were posting compression figures.

Obviously 0~110 is not good. It might just be a sticky valve. Or it's so burnt that it jams open sometimes?

You definately have a problem.

You might want to pull off the valve cover and see if you can see it sticking while someone cranks the engine.

kennypinkerton
07-21-2006, 12:25 AM
I'd say a good head removel and carbon cleaning are in order... And I think the carbon buildup in that cylinder may be causeing the intermittent and low compression readings - could be carbon buildup holding a valve open sometimes, and allowing leakage. Then, you need to find and fix the cause of the excess carbon. Carb rebuild maybe?

Keoke
07-21-2006, 12:45 AM
"Forget the wires how bad is this"; absolutely horrible---Keoke--- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

vping
07-21-2006, 07:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly didn't notice the numbers and didn't realize you were posting compression figures.

Obviously 0~110 is not good. It might just be a sticky valve. Or it's so burnt that it jams open sometimes?

You definately have a problem.

You might want to pull off the valve cover and see if you can see it sticking while someone cranks the engine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Such great compression in the other 3. Darn. While someone turns it over, what to I look for in a stuck valve? Could it be anything else? Imporoper valve adjustment? Cam lobes? Rings in #3? I am just throwing these out there now.

Once ya tell me what to do to check for stuck valve, i'll do it tonight.

The saga continues but I am still smiling /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jlaird
07-21-2006, 08:45 AM
Valve cover off, car in gear 4th, push car a bit while watching #3, does the stem come all the way up? Check a lot, move the car a bit.

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 10:16 AM
Easier way to tell: How many miles since the head was done? If you don't know - its time!

jsneddon
07-21-2006, 10:29 AM
Actually the more I think about it... Even if you figure out if it is sticking or not it doesn't matter. Either way you need to pull that head. It's definitely a valve problem. The other numbers look really good so hopefully if you're lucky the rings on #3 are still good too.

You mentioned other stuff that's going through your mind right now:

Valves: almost certainly
Rings: probably OK (let's hope)
Cam Lobe: I really doubt it

vping
07-21-2006, 10:31 AM
I will check tonight. I should then also be able to check by turning the crank by hand with the vavle cover off and watching #3. If it does not come all the way up does that mean the there is crud built up around the seat? Said crud is preventing the valve from coming all the way up and not "seating" properly thereby not letting compression happen.

Not sure then the head was done but what does this entail & roughly what does it cost? How much besides removal can I do myself and what should I do to improve this?

I take it that this is not a piston ring problem.

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 10:46 AM
Decoking a head is almost normal maintenance

the only way to tell if its a valve problem or ring problem is to do compression checks "wet" & "dry"...by that, I mean do a compression check right after pulling the spark plug....then, squirt some oil in the plug holes & pull another check...the "dry" will tell you if you have valve problems; the "wet" will tell you if you have ring problems.

However, I'm betting valves at a minimum...basically that's just removing the head & letting a machine shop do a good cleaning & 3-angle valve job...you'll need new seals at a minimum; seats or guides at most....but probably not either

I get mine done around here for somewhere near $125-$150 & that includes magnafluxing...seats cost me $12 each; installing/honing guides about the same.

You can have the head off on a Saturday morninig - they'll keep it in shop for several days to work into schedule - you can get it back on the next Saturday.

Unless the "might-as-well's" don't get you.

jsneddon
07-21-2006, 11:09 AM
but since you're going from 0-100 on #3 the squirt trick isn't going to work for you until you can get consistent pressure in #3. That's why I said hopefully the rings are good. Unfortunately you might not really know until you fix the head and put it back on.

And what Tony quoted is about what I paid 15 years ago... He lives in a corner of the world where services seem to be significantly cheaper so I'd figure around 200 bucks wouldn't be that far off. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jlaird
07-21-2006, 11:59 AM
Not a difficult job at all, call your machine shop and ask what they charge. They for sure have a price list and will understand your problem.

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 12:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
He lives in a corner of the world where services seem to be significantly cheaper

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim - ain't that the truth! However, it might also have to do with the volume & longetivity of my work - once I find somebody good, I stay with them...& they reward me for it....Jack Laird just learned all about the cost of living here in north Alabama!

jsneddon
07-21-2006, 12:45 PM
Hey Tony.

do you have em do the hardened valve seats for no-lead when you do it too?

I can't remember the exact terminology... Stellite? something like that.

This is one of the might-as-wells he should probably do since he's in there. Make it a leaded-gas free head. (I know - some of you have been using it for years without additives - but since you're in there anyway....)

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 12:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
do you have em do the hardened valve seats for no-lead when you do it too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unless the seats are bad....I've never had a problem with any MG head & unleaded gas....but I religiously put 93-octane in all my MG's.

jlaird
07-21-2006, 12:58 PM
I decided to not worry about the lead free gas and keep my eye out for a 12G206 or 12G295 head so I can do the works to it.

vping
07-21-2006, 01:20 PM
Well I guess tonight I am checking #3 wet as a starting point. If that is in conclusive, I'm pulling the head off right?

One should not drive for extended periods of time like this should they?

Is this something that can be blown out a cylinder or is that considered a bandaid and the problem lies deeper.

If you remember I had a lot of fuel problems which I think have been resloved. For the time I have run her, could it have caked this on or is this 39 years of slow decay?

"39 years of slow decay"

jlaird
07-21-2006, 01:41 PM
39 years of build up. Factory really suggested pulling head and decarbonizeing on a regular basis.

jsneddon
07-21-2006, 01:42 PM
#3 wet is going to be inconclusive

You are going to need to pull the head. To do that you're going to need to pull off the valve cover (easy). See if anything looks goofy under there (it will be obvious). Then pull the head.

I wouldn't drive it myself. Once the valve train gets wonky it's possible to drop a valve or burn off a chunk or whatever and drop down and trash the piston and put in motion a chain of catastrophic events.

That being said I drove around for a good 3 months on 3 cylinders with a quarter-inch notch burnt out of a valve one time.... but I was young, dumb, broke, and didn't have any other transport.

a blown out ring on the #3 piston would give you consistently bad numbers

No telling if it was just old age or running it with mis-adjusted carbs. Doesn't really matter at this point.

vping
07-21-2006, 01:45 PM
Just to set things in motion, I emailed 3 members of my club for a machine shop recommendation. I'll most likely pull the head tonight & post pics. Oh boy. Fun, fun!

Nunyas
07-21-2006, 02:09 PM
I'll have my vomit bag handy!

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 05:26 PM
While you've got the head off, its not that hard to pull the pan from underneath, loosen the rods & push the pistons out through the top...then you can hone the cylinders, replace the rings & rod bearings...then you won't have to repull the head if there are ring problems.

Factory suggested replacing all bearings every 50,000 miles anyway.

Rob_Edwards
07-21-2006, 06:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Factory suggested replacing all bearings every 50,000 miles anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I doubt you Tony, but as often as I've seen that quoted, I've never been able to find that recommendation in Bentley. Was it in a service bulletin or something?

Cheers!

vping
07-21-2006, 06:55 PM
The saga continues. I pull the valve cover & find that the rocker has worked it's way off of the push rod. No problem. I'll just put it back on. I pulled the push rod out to make sure that it was all the way down and it stuck to the lifter. PLINK! it fell back in the engine and rod won't go back in. I was this close to solving the problem and now this. How can I get the lifter back in place, HMMMM?

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 06:57 PM
Bentley doesn't say it - it was in a message to dealers...now, I don't know if it really needed to be done or if they were just trying to sell engine refreshings! But, I try to do it to all the ones I drive & it seems to keep the engine from wearing unusually...its time to do it for the 2nd time on my '79 that has a little over 100,000 miles....this time I think I'll pull the engine so I can get to the front & rear mains/seals....& I'm gonna do the head also.

vping
07-21-2006, 07:16 PM
hmmm

Nunyas
07-21-2006, 07:33 PM
You might be able to access the tappets by removing the side covers that are under your exhaust manifold... You might have to remove the manifold to get access to them. It's certainly an easier job to do with the manifolds off. It almost sounds like the tappet wedged itself in there some place and won't let you put the rod back in.

Sorry, I'm not much help with this. I've yet needed to try and replace my tappets or cam shaft. Best of luck to ye!

jlaird
07-21-2006, 07:39 PM
Oh please let that engine have side covers.

Now for the question. Had you ever adjusted the valves? Guess you will now. Boy that must have been one loose rocker and did it not make lots of noise running?

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 07:40 PM
Its an MGB - it has side covers.

jlaird
07-21-2006, 07:53 PM
Whoh. I just didn't know and could just see the problems.

vping
07-21-2006, 08:27 PM
OK! TERRIFIC!

Lesson # 138 in the art of having an LBC ready to commence SIR!

Air cleaners off
Carbs off
Heat Shield off
Manifold off
Side cover off
Lifter in
Push Rod in
Rocker back in place.

SIR YES SIR!

Question is how did the rocker come off? This I cannot figure out.
Ponder this while I go put is all back together. When I get back I want an answer and then I'll go out and adjust the valves again!

Jeese this all started with Pertronix and has turned into an eventfull lesson.

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 08:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Question is how did the rocker come off?

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the rocker assembly? There are nuts on studs going through the pedestals.

vping
07-21-2006, 08:33 PM
The rocker arm shifted towards the rear of the engine and the adjusting pin was not seated in the top of the pushrod. The edge of the rocker arm was dpressing the push rod just enough to give intermitent psi readings from the #3cyl. I just can't imagine how it jumped out of the pocket the is at the top of the pushrod.

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 08:40 PM
I've had that happen before - push rod jumping out from under the rocker...check to see if you bent the pushrod...then check your rocker assembly to see what failed to allow the rocker to 'wobble' so much that the pushrod leaped free.

Nunyas
07-21-2006, 09:39 PM
worn rocker arm or shaft or both maybe? I replaced/rebuilt my rocker assy with used parts, using the best of what I had and the best of the used bits to build a better than what I had rocker assy. it made the valve train more quiet, and got rid of 90% of the rocker slop i had in my old rocker assy.

I'm interested in what these rocker bits look like... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

vping
07-21-2006, 10:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've had that happen before - push rod jumping out from under the rocker...check to see if you bent the pushrod...then check your rocker assembly to see what failed to allow the rocker to 'wobble' so much that the pushrod leaped free.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushrod is fine I checked the center by rolling it and then watched the ends for wobble. Twas fine.
The problem is what to look for on the rocker that would make it fail.

tony barnhill
07-21-2006, 10:18 PM
Spring, roll pin...

jlaird
07-22-2006, 10:52 AM
I asked about the rocker arm. How did the rod come off. Something is wrong someplace in the rocker assy I should think. He said the pushrod was OK. Wonder if the rocker assy is attached properly? Head has been off. Gesh, who knows without looking.

jsneddon
07-22-2006, 11:44 AM
HAH! You are one lucky guy! I told you you might find something goofy when you pulled off the valve cover /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Glad to see it isn't a valve.

Still want to get that Petronix ??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

vping
07-22-2006, 01:06 PM
We'll see. I still need to get it back running but while it's apart I'm doing a bunch of cleaning. Can't help it. The manifold was black and inside was coated in a red/brown resin, probably from years of bad gas. Here are a few before photos. I am feeling rather lucky to some degree.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/Carb/tn_7-21-06-Tappettakingitapart003.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/Carb/tn_7-21-06-Tappettakingitapart004.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/Carb/tn_7-21-06-Tappettakingitapart001.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/Carb/tn_7-21-06-Tappettakingitapart008.jpg

tony barnhill
07-22-2006, 01:08 PM
How badly did it damage that lifter?

& can you get a closeup shot of the rocker in question?

jlaird
07-22-2006, 01:14 PM
Hit the outside of that intake manifold with a wire wheel and make it kind of match those nice carbs.

Agree with Tony, is the rocker arm ok? Something had to let that thing get loose.

vping
07-22-2006, 01:21 PM
The lifter was only out of place because of me pulling out the push rod. So there is no damage to it at all..
Here are some clean shots while I run out to get a close up of the rocker.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/Carb/tn_7-22-06-TheCleaning004.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/Carb/tn_7-22-06-TheCleaning005.jpg

The inside is now immaculate. I can't go muc farther as I am missing a manifold stud & the fat washer that holds them in. The heatshield is also done as only about 1/4" of metal is holding it as 1 piece.

vping
07-22-2006, 06:36 PM
Here is the close up of that rocker. Small area in the lower right corner.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i87/vping/1967%20MG%20BGT/Carb/tn_7-22-06-Rockercloseup022.jpg

It was hitting the rim of the push rod. The push rod has a small marred portion of the edge but does not effect the where the adjusting screw sits.

tony barnhill
07-22-2006, 06:39 PM
Do the other rockers have a roll pin next to them to keep them off the pedestal?

vping
07-22-2006, 06:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do the other rockers have a roll pin next to them to keep them off the pedestal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon my rookie ignorance, but what is a roll pin?

jlaird
07-22-2006, 06:45 PM
http://www.rockerarms.com/Austin.htm

Just thought I would share for intrests sake, seems someone is doing anything you can think of if you can just find them.

tony barnhill
07-22-2006, 06:45 PM
tiny round pin that goes through a hole in the rocker shaft to keep the rocker from slipping....do any of the others have such a gizmo - with a washer behind it next to the rocker?

vping
07-22-2006, 08:01 PM
Does not look like they do. The rocker next to it has side movement as well. It looks like if I lossened them all, they would have side to side motion. Nothing fixes these into place.

tony barnhill
07-22-2006, 08:03 PM
Then what probably happened to you is the same that happened to me...valve adjuster backed itself off & allowed the push rod to jump & the rocker to slide sideways.

vping
07-22-2006, 08:16 PM
Just a freak thing that happened to us and it should not happen again I hope?

jlaird
07-22-2006, 09:14 PM
Agree.

Nunyas
07-23-2006, 03:02 PM
possibly. How's the valve spring? I was just thinking that a weak valve spring might allow something like this to happen... But I'm just guessing at possibilities too.

07-23-2006, 06:09 PM
Dang you MG guys are sure wordy.

I apologize if this has already been mentioned but another downfall to Crane or Pertronix electronic ignition (not the Crane 3000 model) is if you chose to leave your ignition on in the run position for more than 2-3 minutes (without the engine running), the chances of your frying your module are extremely high. The Crane 3000 series ($$$) has electronic circuits to avoid this. I have fried 3 Cranes and 1 Pertronix until the manufacturers fessed up to this shortcoming.

I vote for points and condensor.

That said, you all must remember that I am just a Triumph guy and don't really understand most of what you are talking about.


Bill

tony barnhill
07-23-2006, 07:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I am just a Triumph guy and don't really understand most of what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither do we - but we're having fun!

Keoke
07-23-2006, 09:29 PM
The manufacturer of the pertronix did not need to fess up to anything. The FAQ of the installation instructions specificaly states; "A,This can cause your coil to overheat,which sometimes will cause permanet damage to the coil and the Ignitor". Been in there since year one.More Chinese Whispers.---Keoke

vping
07-23-2006, 09:42 PM
I never realized how hot the coil gets when you crank it over. While I was checking the compression, I happened to brush up agianst the coil and boy was it hot.
I should have a new heatsheild, studs & washers by Wednesday and will be able to re-assemble.
I have to think that it running reasonably well on 3 1/2" cyls will run even better on 4. I just hope the rocker does not decide to fall off again. I can't imagine what the solution to that one will be.

Keoke
07-24-2006, 12:22 AM
OH MY Gosh Yes Vping,They almost burn up. However, when you are playing around like that disconnect the coil.Better, get a remote starter switch and you will not require the ignition to be on to turn the engine over. The solution to the rocker is a big screwdriver and spanner.---Keoke-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tony barnhill
07-24-2006, 10:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The solution to the rocker is a big screwdriver and spanner.---Keoke--

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, once I tightened mine back down, it never slipped again - & I had to do mine on the side of a country highway in Kansas in the summertime....took a long nap under a tree while the engine cooled down, fixed it & never looked back!

jsneddon
07-24-2006, 10:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I have to think that it running reasonably well on 3 1/2" cyls will run even better on 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

You will be truly amazed. I ran mine with a burnt valve for probably 3 months before I realized it and was driving every day to work and every weekend I was on extended runs. After I rebuilt the head I was dumbfounded by the acceleration.

JeffS
07-26-2006, 06:35 PM
I run the Crane XR-3000 in my own car, and its worked fine for 6 years now. Some day it will be replaced with a Pertronix unit.

No one has mentioned the "other" benefits of the Pertronix units! There is no more lateral force applied to the points plate pivot (caused by the points spring) once you install the Pertronix. That tension leads to wear on the pivot and can allow the dwell to vary dramatiaclly in an older distributor. Points cam wear is no longer a problem. Adjusting dwell is no longer a problem. Shaft runout in the distributor is no longer a problem - until it gets so bad that the rotor contacts the cap. It also tends to reduce the total distributor timing by about 2 degrees (change in dwell), which also helps to compensate for a worn older distributor. Starting the engine is easier as well.
I don't understand why anyone uses points! Its easy enough to have a "loaded" points plate in the car to install should the EI ever fail. And did I mention they have a 30 month no-questions warranty?

capitalcitycars
07-26-2006, 07:21 PM
Hey, some of us are old school. I like as little electrical in my car as possible. Electrical tends to fail w/o warning. Mechanical will give you a warning. It's simple.

vping
07-28-2006, 10:46 AM
I'll have the new heat shield in the morning with all new gaskets. I should have it running again by Sunday AM as I have a million places to go tomorrow. Will have ther esluts & new pics by Sunday night.
Then we can re-talk about the Pertronix issue but at least this will put to rest whether or not I have a problem. (with my car)

vping
08-03-2006, 07:14 AM
So far this is what I've done.

New Wires
New Plugs
Adjusted the valves (after my rocker was off and fixed)
Points, cap, rotor & condensor are all new & fine.
Timing was set 10ļ static

Did I miss something?

Still running a little rough at low RPM and I stopped working on it while I was still sane. It was hot as heck in the garage last night and working on a hot engine did not help matters any.


I think it might be carb related because when I increase the rpms just a bit over idle, she runs real smooth and responsive. I'm going to have to get some SU books or a video and set these up correctly.

jlaird
08-03-2006, 11:36 AM
Sounds like it just might be an air leak to me.

vping
08-03-2006, 01:51 PM
From where? Where might I start to check?

jlaird
08-03-2006, 02:54 PM
Carb and intake. when eng is running spray a bit of wd 40 on throtle shaft and intake gaskets and see if engine changes speed.

vping
08-03-2006, 09:02 PM
All gaskets from air cleaner to manifold are new.

vping
08-03-2006, 10:52 PM
Weirdest thing. Got home from work and fired her up. Ran like crud. Sputtering & backfiring something fierce. Adjusted the mix still sputtering & backfiring but better. Hoped in and tried to drive off. Bogged and bogged and about 200 feet later I was banging a u-turn heading home.
Tried tweaking again and went out again. Better but non-responsive. I got about 3 blocks away and went into a parking lot to see what was wrong pulled a hard turn and something kinda poped & she roared to life. What amazing power this little bugger has now. Went out for a longdrive & it was only idling a little high.

Felt like something was clogged and I must have blown it out or something.

No bogging chugging or rough idle. Purrs like a kitten.

Don't know why but very glad that is is working fine. Came rushing back home, called the mrs. to the driveway and she got in. Took her on a very fast and twisty run. I looked over and she had a smile on her face. When we were done she told me that she really enjoyed it. That was the first time she has ever been in an MG and after 20 years of being with her, and my non-stop banter about MG's I finally got to give her a ride!

I hope this is not a blessing in disguise and tomorrow is a different story. I'm off to get her first inspection and want all to be well.

jlaird
08-04-2006, 12:38 AM
Intresting, wonder what that was.

kennypinkerton
08-04-2006, 09:16 AM
Mended itself... that's almost scary - might have to rename her Christine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Still would be a good thing to know what happened - in case it happens again.

jlaird
08-04-2006, 09:19 AM
What do you think was liveing in his exhaust pipe, you supose?

Tis only thing I can think of.

vping
08-04-2006, 10:35 AM
Fired her up this morning without the choke and ZERO problems. Just gave the office a tour of it with the old Q&A. Gee oooh ahh. Not one person has ever seen an MG.

My guess it that it was either something in my gas lines which I still need to replace. Or that Dashpot piston problem I had. Either way I am glad but I start my vaction today so it's gonna sit awhile.

tony barnhill
08-04-2006, 11:05 AM
is it because you redid the spark plug wires & got them in proper order?

jlaird
08-04-2006, 11:07 AM
Don't think so, he said it coughed and bucked then all was ok. I think it may have been the tenents in the exhaust pipe.

jsneddon
08-04-2006, 11:35 AM
ya think that much back pressure could have been what dinked his rocker off the valve too?

jlaird
08-04-2006, 12:02 PM
Now that's an intresting posibility but I just don't know.

swift6
08-04-2006, 12:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
is it because you redid the spark plug wires & got them in proper order?

[/ QUOTE ]

Possible, if the leads were crossed and the plugs were fouled, getting the wires straight helps but you might still notice trouble until the plugs burn themselves clean with the proper firing order. Sometimes fouled plugs come back, sometimes they don't.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

vping
08-04-2006, 01:25 PM
Tony, I never changed the wire order. I had my own system for knowing where they go but I took them off about 3 weeks ago so my aged mind kinda vegged for awhile. My post as to where they go was an in case of.

When you guys talk about something in my exhaust, what might you be referring to? Banana's?

I am running very rich right now so I will take care of that as soon as I return. I will also do an other oil change and check the pulgs. I ditched the autolite & am running AC Delco to give them a whirl. Parts guy did not recomment the platinum, 1, 2 ot 4 for this car.

jsneddon
08-04-2006, 01:54 PM
coulda been a mouse, a nest, a potato, something rusty inside the muffler that was blocking the exit and burned through (kinda unlikely) who knows....

you don't have a catalytic converter so that's not it.

do you suspect someone coulda tampered with it?

Keoke
08-04-2006, 03:06 PM
Naw Jim, it was just a case of bad gas.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif