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bfitz
01-04-2006, 10:21 PM
Don't slam me too bad, this is one of those questions that I KNOW is stupid, but I have to ask. Are TR 3 engines really based on Massey Ferguson tractor motors? If they are, does anyone know the model tractor? I may have to buy a tractor now. Thanks.......

sammyb
01-04-2006, 10:46 PM
Bfitz,
I'm sure someone will post a more complete answer, but in summary -- it's the other way around. Actually, the TR engine started life in 1946ish and was built for the Standard Vanguard...so it was a car engine. Since it was also bullet-proof, the engine found its way into the Ferguson tractors built by Standard-Triumph. The engine was also worked-over for use in the TR range.

Many call it a tractor engine as a put-down. In reality, it's a car engine that not only proved flexible enough for a sports car, but also was tough enough for a tractor. So calling it a tractor engine should be considered positive. Few engines in history have proven so sporting, fuel efficient, and so tough. (Small block Chevy is the only other that comes to mind.)

And few people realize that one of the greatest sports car engines of all time, the Coventry Climax, started as a water pump!

Trevor Triumph
01-04-2006, 11:13 PM
I understand that the TR3 block is still manufactured in India. That's quite a long history. T.T.

Andrew Mace
01-04-2006, 11:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Bfitz,
I'm sure someone will post a more complete answer, but in summary -- it's the other way around. Actually, the TR engine started life in 1946ish and was built for the Standard Vanguard...so it was a car engine. Since it was also bullet-proof, the engine found its way into the Ferguson tractors built by Standard-Triumph. The engine was also worked-over for use in the TR range....

[/ QUOTE ]That's pretty much it. I did find a chart showing what Ferguson models would've used a Standard motor (not absolutely sure how accurate this is, but):

TEA-20 Standard (STD) Petrol 1947-56
TEC-20 Narrow w/Standard 1948-56
TED-20 STD V.O vaporized oil 1949-56
TEE-20 STD V.O Narrow 1946-56
TEF-20 STD Diesel 1951-56
TEH-20 STD Zero octane engine 1950-56
TEJ-20 STD Zero Octane Narrow 1950-65
TEK-20 STD Petrol Vinyard 1952-56
TEL-20 STD V.O. Vinyard 1952-56
TEM-20 STD Zero Octane Vinyard 1952-56
TEP-20 STD Petrol Industrial 1952-56
TER-20 STD V.O. Industrial 1952-56
TES-20 STD Lamp Oil Industrial 1952-56
TET-20 STD Diesel Industrial 1952-56

Meanwhile, I do know that STAMPRO, which was the Indian company that manufactured and/or assembled various Standard cars, did in fact make some version of this motor at least as late as the 1980s, when STAMPRO took over the Rover SD-1 body dies and produced a Standard 2000 model. Wasn't terribly successful as I understand it, but it did exist. There's more information about THAT car on <www.standardmotorclub.org>.

Simon TR4a
01-05-2006, 09:39 AM
Just a small addition to what has already been mentioined, the Standard Vanguard was first displayed to the public, with a 2088cc. version of the engine, at the Earl's Court Motor Show in 1949, so the engine would, as Sammy said, have had its original design started about 1946.
There is a nice Ferguson tractor website with lots of pictures and a fascinating story about how these tractors were used in Arctic exploration in the 195-'s, with adaptations for the cold climate including a half-track conversion.(Sorry, I don't have the address!)
Simon.

Andrew Mace
01-05-2006, 10:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Just a small addition to what has already been mentioined, the Standard Vanguard was first displayed to the public, with a 2088cc. version of the engine, at the Earl's Court Motor Show in 1949...

[/ QUOTE ]Simon, are you sure about that date? According to information on the Standard Motor Club web site, "[the] Vanguard was introduced [in July 1947] originally in 1850cc form but soon enlarged to 2088cc with OHV gear."

Andy Blackley
01-05-2006, 12:47 PM
Its one tough engine alright. My dad rescued a TE20 from a field about 15 years ago and the block was cracked along the webbing inside the block. He welded it and rebuilt with new liners and it has run like a champ ever since. I see them in the local paper fairly often, I think that a number were sold here in NE Ohio and obviously many are still running strong. Tractor restoration is a very popular hobby hereabouts.

gjh
01-05-2006, 12:49 PM
FYI:

I found some info to start with on this standard motor club site:

31st December 1945 - The Triumph Company was acquired by the Standard Motor Company. A 4WD agricultural vehicle was produced based on the 8hp engine - only short production run.

1946
8hp, 12hp and 14hp continued as before now joined by Triumph 1800 in Roadster and Saloon form using engines surplus to Jaguars requirements.
Jaguar were now making their own cars of 2 1/2 and 3 litre capacity utilising their own engines, although they still used Standards 1 1/2 litre unit.
September 1946 - last years 4WD vehicle was replaced by the first of the Ferguson tractors.


1947
All models as for 1946 until July when the Vanguard was introduced originally in 1850cc form but soon enlarged to 2088cc with OHV gear.

1948
The older Standard models were now phased out, the last Eight being produced in July and the Twelve and Fourteen models ending their production runs between July and September. The Vanguard saloon continued as before to be joined by Vanguard Estate, 12cwt Van and Pick Up Truck versions in October.
Late in 1948 the Triumph Roadster and shortly afterwards the saloon were fitted with the 2088cc Vanguard engine.
1949
Production now was all Vanguard models and derivatives alongside Triumph Roadsters and saloons, the saloon becoming known as the Renown.
November saw the new Triumph Mayflower emerge with 1 1/4 litre side valve engine.

1950
The mixture as before with refinements:
The Vanguard was now available (in May) with a rolltop roof courtesy of Tickford and in June was fitted optionally with overdrive, as was the Renown, which had a new IFS chassis frame for good measure.
October saw the extremely attractive 'streamlined' Triumph Roadster, of which only 3 examples were built, as well as the introduction of a DHC of the Mayflower, again very short lived, being withdrawn in December.


1951
All as for 1950 but the Motor Show saw the introduction of a revised radiator grille and wider back window for the Vanguard (Phase IA as it is often termed) and a limousine option of the Renown.


1952
Again - all as before with the exciting addition of the Triumph TR2 sports, fitted with a linered down Vanguard engine of 1991cc plus twin carbs.


1953
In March, the Vanguard Phase II was released featuring a re-styled boot to complement the previous revisions of 1951. Triumph production continued as before. Ferguson tractors had been steadily produced in large numbers since 1946 both in petrol and diesel engined form, now, in September, Ferguson merged with Massey Harris, although the respected Ferguson tractor continued in both forms for several years to come. The 8hp Standard saloon was introduced during the year, a very spartan basic little car, with 803cc ohv four cylinder engine.
December saw the Swallow Doretti sports car based on the TR2, and produced by the Swallow Coachbuilding Co of Walsall and no connection with SS (now Jaguar) of previous association.


1954
Saw the introduction in April of the new Ten which had an enlarged engine of 948cc and a fully trimmed bodyshell with winding windows. This same bodyshell was used for the new Eight De Luxe which came out in June, whilst August saw the first Diesel engined Vanguard (with Ferguson motor) in Estate,Van, Pick Up and Saloon versions.
October spawned the Ten estate (Companion) as well as a 6cwt Pick Up based on the Ten. Flashing indicators, first seen on Beauvais' 1933 Avon Coupe were now fitted to the Eights and Tens. Otherwise the range continued as before.

1955
The Vanguard became the Vanguard III with unit construction body in place of the previous chassis framed vehicle. The 2088cc engine continued. In July the Family Eight replaced the basic Eight and for the Motor Show in October the Super Eight and Super Ten were announced with enhanced trim and equipment. The Motor Show also saw the introduction of the TR3, a revised TR2.


1956
The range continued as before, but the smaller cars were now joined in March by the Family Ten, a basic version, and the two pedal 'Standrive' system was introduced later in the year, again for smaller cars. The Vanguard III Estate Car, and the Sportsman version of the saloon (with basically a TR3 engine, albeit not quite as powerful) joined the saloon Vanguard III and the TR3 was treated to disc brakes.




http://www.standardmotorclub.org.uk/cars/standard_history.htm

Kurtis
01-05-2006, 08:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Don't slam me too bad, this is one of those questions that I KNOW is stupid, but I have to ask. Are TR 3 engines really based on Massey Ferguson tractor motors? If they are, does anyone know the model tractor? I may have to buy a tractor now. Thanks.......

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know all the details, and others here have already answered your question, but I will point out that when I rebuilt the engine on my TR4, I enlisted the help of a co-worker whose hobby was restoring old tractors. The engine seemed pretty familiar to him! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Simon TR4a
01-06-2006, 10:54 AM
Thanks, Andy Mace and Gary, nice to get all that extra information.
I think the 1850 engine was used in the Renown, the "razoredge" styled saloon, as well as the Roadster. I was obviously mistaken about the date for the Vanguard with the 2088cc. engine.
I was born in 1951, and remember riding in a Vanguard at quite an early age, perhaps about 6 or 7, and thinking it was quite like a Vauxhall Velox that friends of my parents owned.
Simon.

Andrew Mace
01-06-2006, 02:30 PM
I'd have to do some research, but I'm not sure that there ever was a "production" 1850cc version of the original Vanguard engine; I suspect that was a prototype engine, but I could be mistaken.

Meanwhile, when the "Razoredge" saloon (originally called Town & Country or something like that, later 2000 and finally Renown) and the Roadster were first introduced, they used an already existing 1776cc Standard engine.

bfitz
01-13-2006, 01:52 PM
thanks guys..all very interesting..